The Gubblemobile- Series III from hell.

[Alaska Mike]

I have two piles in my driveway/front yard. One is the rolling chassis with the bulkhead forward still on, the other is the tub and top, stuffed full of doors, seats, and all sorts of other junk. Both are covered by tarps (in true Alaska fashion).

I mentioned to the wife that I was considering parting the Rover out and looking for something else, and she told me not to do it. Not that she loves it (or really even likes it), but she knows that I would enjoy it as a project and a completed vehicle.

So, I guess a lot depends on how prices run. My existing bulkhead would require me getting a serious metal brake (length) and would take some serious work. The top of the bulkhead has me the most worried. If I can get a relatively easily repaired bulkhead for a decent price, my time and money might be better spent there. Again, we're talking functional, not resto.

The main part of this winter's work will be the bulkhead and frame- if I get that far. The rest can wait until it thaws. It waited this long, and it's probably protected better than it was before.

 

[Alaska Mike]

Well, the parts hoarding continues. The new frame and bulkhead are on their way. I picked up a Spicer 18 while I was down visiting the folks in Virginia. I have a SM465 waiting for me to pick it up. I'm also going to pick up an offset Dana 44 and Spicer 25 combo for cheap so I have a way to roll the new chassis around. Since they are probably better than the exisiting axles, I may run with them in the long run. We'll see. The snow has pretty much melted away, but I'm finding it hard to get enthusiastic about starting the real work right now. I'll keep picking up the pieces until I can make serious progress in one fell swoop before I start wrenching in earnest. No need to bust knuckles in cold weather for minimal accomplishments.

 

[Alaska Mike]

Well, since I was swapping everything else, why not the suspension? The old leaves are kinda saggy and rusted even without the body and top on. Imagine what it's like when it's loaded. I guess there's a reason is was sporting meaty P225/75 R15s. If I'm going to do it, I might as well do it (relatively) right the first time.

I had a set of stock springs on order from D.A.P. The plan was to do the TAW treatment on them. Then we found out shipping would have been more than the cost of the springs (around $600). Ouch. Free shipping offers (like the one from Rovers North) never seem to include Alaska.

The option of getting springs made locally was explored and discared. No need to redo the R&D, and the price wasn't all that different.

I'm looking at Rocky Mountain parabolics (2 leaf front/3 leaf rear) with OME shocks from Wise Owl right now, since their shipping should be a little less. A comfortable street ride (within the parameters of a leaf sprung vehicle) and moderate off-roading capability are my goals, and I think this set will do the job.

Of course, it's 14F today and tempertures are going to start dropping tonight, so I expect I will spend more time dreaming than wrenching.

 

[MuddyMudskipper]

This may be a shot in the dark, but you may want to try and contact Eric Zitzman from NorCal Relics for some parts as well. He is always bringing aircooled VWs over to England and bringing Rovers and stuff back. You can contact him via the Land Rover Repair Forums athttp://lrrforums.com/member.php?u=1356 or email him. eric@norcalrelics.com

 

[Alaska Mike]

MuddyMudskipper-
Thanks for the resource. Many of the Land Rover parts are being replaced for price and availability reasons (not to mention shipping), but there will be many Land Rover-specific parts that I will want to retain or replace to keep the overall appearance and functionality.

I just found a reliable and relatively cheap local source for Scout II Saginaw steering boxes, so that modification may happed sooner rather than later.

I also ordered the Spicer 18 rebuild kit and the adapters to mate it to a SM465 from Novak. A radiator is also on the way, as the old one looks a little crusty and more than a little dinged up.

You guys weren't kidding. My wallet is taking a beating, and I haven't even started bolting parts on yet.

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

There are two real philosophies, and one of them is an ignorance is bliss concept. You are only down because you know about bulkhead repairs and such and all the things it might "need..." I did the same exact thing, I bought an old SIII 88 that was my first and only real Rover that was completely mine (the 109 at my shop belongs to a friend). I was maybe 21, I'd/I've been lusting after Rovers my whole life...

It was a great old truck, sat about 20 years, shot frame and blown transmission. I bought it for $1400 from a guy in Woodstock New York, bought a trans for another $350 I think, the guy who I bought the Rover from had a decent shop and let me swap out the transmission the night I bought it. Half the fun of the trip was driving to western Buffalo in possibly the biggest snow storm I'd experienced in my life, it snowed about 4' of lake effect there, to buy the transmission. It was steam cleaned/immaculate, and would become the "nicest" part on the whole truck! The guy who sold me the transmission was a serious Rover enthusiast, had a gorgeous massive barn/shop devoted to Rovers only, and a gorgous Olive green IIA 88 that had he'd completely hand restored and probably the cleanest I've seen to this day...

Same thing, some holes in the bulkhead and some in the frame. Safe for the most part except in maybe a massive serious accident but regardless I would be in a series Rover so I never considered it a "safe" vehicle. I had my old Volvo that was my regular car but found the Rover became my daily driver for maybe 6 months easily... I started reading up on the Internet. Same thing, it got me down. I was in college so super poor college kid. So I did what I could.. Which was basically just run it... When I drove it and lived it, I loved it. When I was on the internet and read about all the work I would need to do to it (things I forgot about when I was driving it), I would get down..

And in the end, had an absolute blast.. I worked at a bar a few nights a week that consistently had a massive several-foot high snowpile in front of it.. Often this was the only "parking spot" available for blocks, so that is what I would do, park right on top of it Then one night (sounds cheezy) but in a drunken stupor I definitely got laid one night because of it (A girl from Westford, where RoversNorth is, who was in love with them for life I think!)... She lives out here in Utah now and we are still good friends...

Anyway, just run it if it is easily runable and won't take too much $$ to get going.. You don't need any gauges except for maybe oil pressure and temp, and you can source those at Autozone for $20!

And maybe use it for parts sometime or whatever, but consider it an adventure for now if you can get it running.. It is only $500... Even with the rest of the body shot, it can probably hardly get worse and as long as the frame is semi-decent/safe, then you are fine... The only real issue with rust holes is... Yu know other people might have cleaner Rovers! (but honestly, who cares. Ignorance is bliss!)

Then if you want to buy another later do it then and use this one for parts maybe.. Again these are work horses, I mentioned it in another thread but I spent time in a 109 in Nepal that had been underwater in a swap for many years.. And they pulled it out and it was what we were cruising around in... It was a real Rover, hopefully like yours can be... In most places the only places, the only "clean" Rovers are brand new ones!

My $.02!

 

[Alaska Mike]

I really considered going with the "run what ya brung" philosophy here. That's part of the Rover mystique. However, the practical side of me says the following:

• I keep vehicles for longer than most people (15+ years for the CJ-5 so far)
• The purpose of this vehicle is long-distance travel and moderate wheeling, and that means reliability is key
• Consumable parts are hard to source up here, and expensive to ship
• Hard parts are even more expensive to ship
• The Rover engine is not known for being a powerhouse (a concern for long-distance, pavement travel)
• Rover drivetrains are not known for holding in oil and keeping water out (a real concern on trails here)

I spent a lot of time and money on the Jeep making modifications and then redoing them later. It was part of the fun, but I don't know if I'm up for it anymore. The Jeep was a kind of rolling "what works" laboratory, and the results will help make the Rover into what I want.

It's obviously not a financial investment. It's more of a lifestyle investment. There are more practical/reliable/cheaper vehicles out there that I can get, but this was a chance to get into a vehicle that I've admired for years. I've always liked the looks and balance of a short wheelbase rig, so much so that I ignore the practical advantages of a bigger rig. I am aware, I just choose to disregard. I think that characteristic will be an asset in this project.

 

[MuddyMudskipper]

That's the spirit!

 

[Alaska Mike]

Whoo hooo! Just found a local source for Scout II steering parts. $100 for the steering box, pitman arm, pump, and steering shaft. Not too shabby. Even if I have to rebuild or replace a couple parts, I'll come out ahead of my original estimate.

The picture of what I want the rig to be is slowly coming together. My project "graduation" is a shakedown run up to Deadhorse or another northern town. The maybe a run down to Arizona to see Scott and play on some trails. Nothing definite, but a goal to work towards.

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

I always thought I was 109" or 110 material but I must say I absolutely loved and fell in love with my '88, one of the few SWB vehicles I absolutely loved. I love the look of the 4 door Rovers but my '88 was one of my favorite of all time... Here is a pic from deep in the hard drive...

When I bought it and resurrected...

 

[Alaska Mike]

Just picked up my SM465. I had forgotten just how big and heavy those suckers are. Good thing the engine I'm installing is about 100lbs lighter than the 2.25L, because this thing is beefy. Mayby not 100lbs more than the stocker, but it's certainly heavier. It's amazingly clean though, so some minor touch up, a few gaskets and seals, and the adapter should be all it requires.

As soon as Advance Adapters gets around to sending my order, I should be starting the first tentative steps in the buildup.

I know one thing, I'm using the hoist to move it around.

 

[Alaska Mike]

I'm in a bit of a quandry about the axles at this point, and I've been running the pros and cons. All of my options would require a rebuild of some nature, to include seals and new bearings. These aren't new axles by any means.

Stock Rover axles:
I could run them as is, but more likely I would do the SeriesTrek shafts and a 27 spline 3rd member in the rear. The front would probably get a disc conversion at some point, and maybe upgraded shafts as required. It's very possible I will be about $3000+ into the axles by the time they are complete, and that's without a locker (the Toyota eLocker option looks a bit involved for me at this time).
What I like about the stock axles:

• Full-floating rearend.
• 3rd member design

What I don't like:

• 10 spline shafts (in stock form)
• Drums all around (in stock form)
• Special tools required for maintenance
• Consumable parts not always readily available (shipping costs)
• Closed knuckle front
• Different bolt pattern than my Jeep (can't swap tires without a remount).

Certain things can be dealt with, certain things you live with.

Dana 44 rear/Dana 30 front:
I've been offered a set of M38A1 axles for pretty cheap. The rear is an offset Dana 44 with 2 piece axle shafts and 5.38 gears. The front is a Dana 25 closed-knuckle axle, which will be replaced with a Dana 30 of similar width, but with slightly stronger components and disc brakes. The Dana 44 would probably get 1 piece shafts or a full-floating conversion (I'm still researching vendors), and the gears would probably be changed to 4.10s for highway performance. I can easily do the two axles for $2,000.
What I like about the stock axles:

• Local parts availability
• Disc brakes up front
• Common, easily found tools
• Tire swaps easy
• Been working on them for years
• Open knuckle front

What I don't like:

• 10 spline shafts (in stock form)
• Will require spring perch modification
• Aftermarket support dwindling in last 10 years for rear axle
• Rover guys will shun me at first glance

The stock axles I have need a lot of work, so any cost saving I have up front are offset by the replacement parts I have to buy (and ship). I really like the design of the rear axle for the most part, and if I could mix the best of both worlds I would. However, I'm not in the mood to carry spares of different bolt patterns or remount a tire every time I need to swap one out. So, it's one or the other. I considered modifying a Salisbury axle, but that has its own issues.

I'd appreciate some input. While the Dana solution might seem like the obvious choice (fom purely a financial standpoint), there are some things to be worked out with it. Likewise, the Rover method is easier from a technical standpoint, it could easily bleed my bank account dry.

Thoughts?

 

[Mercedesrover]

If you’re not going to be beating on this truck and you’re not going to run a bunch of horsepower, the cheapest way out is leaving it the way it is. Get yourself a fresh set of rear shafts and keep the old ones for spares. In my opinion the ring/pinion and the differential is the weak link with new decent shafts. When these 10-spline shafts do fail, it’s from fatigue, not their inherent weakness. And they will fail at a rate of 100% over time. The alloy they’re made of just isn’t designed to accept the frequency of twisting that they’re subject to.

If you want to upgrade so something stronger, I’ll give you my advice in the order of cost.

1) If you can handle the gearing, swap both diffs out for coiler units with 3:54 gears. Get a 10-spine diff for the front and leave those shafts alone and get a 24-spline diff for the rear and upgrade to my axles. This still leaves the ring/pinion/diff as the weak point but they’re cheap to buy and you’ve eliminated the problematic axles. You can do this for probably around $850 depending on what the diffs cost you.

2) You can leave the front axle alone and upgrade the rear to a 4:70 Toyota diff and my 30-spine axles. This will give you a rock-solid axle with a diff that’s even stronger than the V6/turbo style. You will need to weld and re-drill your housing as well as bore out the stub axles a bit but you will have an axle that will never let you down. Of course, this leaves the stock gearing so you’ll need to find your road speed by different methods. Depending on what this diff costs you, this can be done for under $1000 too.

3) Go all out and swap both the front and rear diffs with Toyota V6/turbo e-locker diffs and my 30-spine axles front and rear. This requires welding and drilling both the front and rear case, boring out the rear stub axles and upgrading the front FWH to 24-spline units. This method will give you a wide choice of gearing as well as lockers front and rear and a set of axles that are proven successful. There are guys with this conversion running 36”-38” tires in heavy, heavy coil-sprung rigs and not breaking anything. There’s even a guy over in Lebanon that has 42”s on his DII with this conversion. You will build these axles once and never touch them again. It’s not cheap though, and cost will vary depending on whether you buy used diffs in a factory gear, buy new diffs in a factory gear or have someone like Marlin Crawler build you new diffs in an aftermarket ratio. With used diffs in a stock ratio, this conversion will cost you around $3000. With new diffs with a non-factory ratio and you’ll drop $5000 pretty quickly.

What you will have this last set-up is the strongest axles you can build while using the factory housings. Mine have been done for years and for thousands of miles without any trouble. If the gearing doesn’t bother you and you need something strong, the second option is probably your best bet. The 4:70 diff isn’t easy to find, but they’re out there and pretty cheap. A good used one shouldn’t cost you more than $400.

jim

 

[Alaska Mike]

Any vehicle I run up here will see some moderate wheeling. I know that designation varies a great deal, but up here it means creek crossings up to the headlights, muskeg, some rocks, and hillclimbs. Since everything is usually wet, there will be some wheelspin involved. It certainly isn't going to be an easy life, but many wheeling vehicles up here see worse. The difference is that this vehicle will be used for more long-distance travel.

The plan is to run 32"-33" tires in a 10.5" width, probably BFG MTs.

I'm not as concerned about the R&P as I am the axle shafts. I'm also wanting to swap to disc brakes at least in the front. We run a lot of mud/water, and when you throw in a greasy hill the last thing you want to think about is if your brakes will hold.

Your rear axle shafts have me interested, but to do the front would be cost-prohibitive if I wanted to do a disc brake conversion. 3.54 would be a little high geared for the engine I'm considering.

By coiler, do you mean Range Rover Classics and Defenders? Sorry, my Rover lingo isn't up to speed just yet. Is there a 4.7 diff for the 24 spline 3rd member, or is there a factory/aftermarket gearset that will replace it?

 

[Mercedesrover]

Yes, it can be done with a spacer ring from ARB (#RD03A). Find yourself a 24-spline coiler (yes, Defender, Rangie, Disco = coiler) diff and throw the spacer and Series gear-set in them.

A pretty cheap way out but not a vast improvement in strength.