ExplorerTom
Explorer
Snorkels are sooooooooo 2012. In 2017, everyone had trailers at Overland Exp. In 2018, who knows what the rage will be. Only the cool kids know ahead of time.
The Snorkel's relevance to North American overlanding
- Thread starter Dalko43
- Start date
Snorkels are sooooooooo 2012. In 2017, everyone had trailers at Overland Exp. In 2018, who knows what the rage will be. Only the cool kids know ahead of time.
lugueto
Adventurer
I honestly don't believe a snorkel is more restrictive than a standard intake. Snorkels from Safari and the like are usually engineered so that they're not restrictive. Using the ram cap, you shouldn't see a reduction in power, au contraire. This is one factor a dyno run can't contemplate: The fact that you have the ram effect at speed helping the engine. In a dyno run, there's no air rushing into the snorkel. Snorkel prefilters will be more restrictive than ram intakes, that's for sure.
Yes and no. I've only seen one vehicle dead because of a wet ECU. It was a WK Grand Cherokee that went into deep water at maybe 40km/h. I believe those trucks have the ECU in the engine bay.
We mostly drive fuel injected Toyotas and have never had an issue. All of us run snorkels (its almost mandatory) and I can honestly say that, even doing crossings as the one on the video (And a few bad window-deep bogs), vehicles have stayed safe and sound. It is important that you shut down the vehicle when you know you're screwed. It will make reviving the vehicle possible, whereas if you leave her running until she shuts herself down you will damage electronics and risk hydrolock.
Funny story: A friend of mine once entered water at maybe 60km/h on a bone stock Prado, no snorkel. Smart move. He says water came rushing out of the A/C vents like they were Super Soakers. The engine did take a nice drink, but it was an easy fix. ECU and related electronics were perfectly fine. The truck did the trip under her own power and is still going strong today.
This has always been a cause for discussion. I've never seen damage to an engine block or any major component due to the temperature difference. Although we don't have near freezing conditions, we do have very hot engine bays. The one component that really doesn't last long on our vehicles are mufflers and exhaust pipes.
Last edited:
There is a ram air effect with most of the factory air intake setup's as well. Fresh air usually flows (via ducting) from the front fender area into the air box. The difference between most factory setup's and aftermarket snorkels is that the snorkels require the intake air to travel longer ducting.
Last edited:
FJOE
Regular Dude
Though not relevant to the "North America" part of this thread, my Donaldson pre-filter does collect a SIGNIFICANT amount of junk (including some smaller road debris) just driving to work and back over the course of a month. Mid-summer, I can drive offroad in a group of 3 or 4 for maybe 3 hours, and its 1/4 full by the end of the day.
MLu
Adventurer
A turbocharger is basically just a fan anyway.
Not North America, but I suspect the roads up here in Scandinavistan are paved to an equal or greater degree... the only time I've really wanted a snorkel (and still thinking I'll eventually get one due to this incident) was when a shallow water crossing on a beach had a surprising dip in it for just a moment, enough to dip the headlights in and get the air filter wet, even if it was just for a split second. It's not something I would need every month or necessarily even every year, but now and again there's that one time when you do need it. Same goes for clearance, low range, mud-terrains and so on and so on. It's all just insurance, and all just for the outlier events, but all of it combined means you can go places you can't go with a Honda Civic.
Not North America, but I suspect the roads up here in Scandinavistan are paved to an equal or greater degree... the only time I've really wanted a snorkel (and still thinking I'll eventually get one due to this incident) was when a shallow water crossing on a beach had a surprising dip in it for just a moment, enough to dip the headlights in and get the air filter wet, even if it was just for a split second. It's not something I would need every month or necessarily even every year, but now and again there's that one time when you do need it. Same goes for clearance, low range, mud-terrains and so on and so on. It's all just insurance, and all just for the outlier events, but all of it combined means you can go places you can't go with a Honda Civic.
Airmapper
Inactive Member
I got mine because it was cool and I wanted one. If anyone has a problem with that, well they have a problem of minding other people's business.
Now I say it's because I thought it was cool, and this is true, but there is a certain event that put it on my radar. I was in the Ozarks in Arkansas. I was going down a very mild gravel road and came up to a stream crossing. Now around home in Kentucky, 90% of water crossings are either mysterious muddy water you stay out of, or trickles barely worth noting. I seen clear water crossing the road, and though, meh, this is a puddle. From my point of view in the drivers seat, it didn't look that bad.
About half way across I realize it's deeper than I figured, and then I bumped a rock ledge underwater that I had not seen. I killed it in the middle of the creek, as I was more or less coasting across, and when the engine died I noticed water lapping at the rocker panels. Given the way I was positioned, I looked back and my rear wheels were mostly submerged, meaning the point I had just crossed was deeper than where my front end had hung. Now this wasn't dangerous, but keep in mind when I went in I thought it was ankle deep. I restarted the engine, got it into 4LO, and it crawled right out.
That stuck in my mind how much I was off. Clear water was part of it, I wasn't used to how deceptive it can be guessing depth if you do not get out and check.
Now people ask me all the time, "Hey you use that snorkel." I don't usually mind but it's hard to explain to people, because they don't get what it's for. Everyone assumes if you have a snorkel you go around looking for water up to the hood to drive around in because you can. To me the snorkel is not intended to be "used." I don't want to ever need that thing for a water crossing, it's like a seat belt, I've driven 100's of thousands of miles wearing one, and not used it, and that's a very good thing. It's purpose is to prevent a stupid splash of mud or water from ruining my day when I make an inevitable miscalculation on the depth of a muddy rut, or a stream I thought was shallow. If it can keep my engine from getting a throat full of gunk and give me enough time to drive out or get tugged out before it ruins something, it's done it's job. No guarantees, but it could be the tiny little tipping factor between "oh what a mess" and "how am I going to get me and my vehicle home."
Now I say it's because I thought it was cool, and this is true, but there is a certain event that put it on my radar. I was in the Ozarks in Arkansas. I was going down a very mild gravel road and came up to a stream crossing. Now around home in Kentucky, 90% of water crossings are either mysterious muddy water you stay out of, or trickles barely worth noting. I seen clear water crossing the road, and though, meh, this is a puddle. From my point of view in the drivers seat, it didn't look that bad.
About half way across I realize it's deeper than I figured, and then I bumped a rock ledge underwater that I had not seen. I killed it in the middle of the creek, as I was more or less coasting across, and when the engine died I noticed water lapping at the rocker panels. Given the way I was positioned, I looked back and my rear wheels were mostly submerged, meaning the point I had just crossed was deeper than where my front end had hung. Now this wasn't dangerous, but keep in mind when I went in I thought it was ankle deep. I restarted the engine, got it into 4LO, and it crawled right out.
That stuck in my mind how much I was off. Clear water was part of it, I wasn't used to how deceptive it can be guessing depth if you do not get out and check.
Now people ask me all the time, "Hey you use that snorkel." I don't usually mind but it's hard to explain to people, because they don't get what it's for. Everyone assumes if you have a snorkel you go around looking for water up to the hood to drive around in because you can. To me the snorkel is not intended to be "used." I don't want to ever need that thing for a water crossing, it's like a seat belt, I've driven 100's of thousands of miles wearing one, and not used it, and that's a very good thing. It's purpose is to prevent a stupid splash of mud or water from ruining my day when I make an inevitable miscalculation on the depth of a muddy rut, or a stream I thought was shallow. If it can keep my engine from getting a throat full of gunk and give me enough time to drive out or get tugged out before it ruins something, it's done it's job. No guarantees, but it could be the tiny little tipping factor between "oh what a mess" and "how am I going to get me and my vehicle home."
MOguy
Explorer
Your motor is a pump it can only suck what it can suck. If the manufacture created an intake that starves the motor of air then by making more are available it could take it in. But the engine can only suck what it can on its own unless you turbo or super charge it. There are thoughts on colder air being more dense. A modern vehicle controlled by a computer it will keep your fuel:air mixture at a ratio within emission standards. If you could increase the air flow, naturally(you would need to modify the motor to suck harder) or though turbo or supercharger you would need more fuel for it to be of any benefit but the computer will keep things with in the required emissions standards.
Just adding more air isn't enough to create more power.
Naturally aspirated means that the engine gets its air intake from a regular intake system, meaning it breathes on its own, not needing external power to feed air into it. Americanmuscle.com, in their article
https://www.theodysseyonline.com/na-vs-fi
Ram Air: The Myth?
Ram-air is a term that was initially made popular in the 60's Muscle Car era. In effect, it was a method for pulling in outside air directly into the carburetor instead of having the vehicle utilize warmer air under the hood, thus more horsepower potential. The use of the term “Ram Air” can be miss-perceived with an assumption that these systems actually have the capability to force more air into the motor in order to increase performance. This is an incorrect assumption. Ram Air is simply a true CAI in that it has the ability to directly pull in outside air. The only real forms of forcing more air into an engine revolve around turbo and supercharger systems.
http://blog.autointhebox.com/uncovering-the-myth-of-automotive-intake-systems.html
Last edited:
I waited until my 2012 Tacoma had 100k miles before I drilled the holes. Since the install, I have picked up about 2mpg overall and, after a multi day run through Big Bend, my air filter was very clean. The factory air intake was down low behind the right front wheel and picked up a lot of crap.
While going through one of the required Border Patrol checkpoints down there, one officer took a picture of mine. When I asked why, he replied that they often run their Ford Raptors through deep water, and have locked up a number of engines at a $7000+ rebuild cost. When I explained that a Snorkel is a few hundred $$, he said he knew but apparently, the BP doesn't like to modify their vehicles.
While going through one of the required Border Patrol checkpoints down there, one officer took a picture of mine. When I asked why, he replied that they often run their Ford Raptors through deep water, and have locked up a number of engines at a $7000+ rebuild cost. When I explained that a Snorkel is a few hundred $$, he said he knew but apparently, the BP doesn't like to modify their vehicles.
Like I said earlier, I understand the theoretical reasons for having a snorkel. What I've realized over several years of exploring is that in certain areas of North America I've only encountered 1-2 situations where a snorkel would have been absolutely necessary to continue on, and there were nearby bypasses in those instances. Maybe as I continue to explore the northern parts of Canada, my perception of the snorkel's relevance will change.
A concern that I've always had about snorkels is having rain water or snow fall into the ram air head and get sucked into the air box filter. I've heard of a few instances where that has happened in the northeast and I've heard of owners turning their ram air snorkel head away from the direction of travel (or putting a cap over the head when parked) to mitigate this risk. As well, it is affecting the aerodynamics and air intake flow of your vehicle, however slightly. So even if I find myself traveling into areas where a snorkel would be practical, I think there are still trade-off's to consider.
Stryder106
Explorer
I'm gonna beat the hell out of this already beaten down horse. Interestingly no one on here has listed the primary reason why I put a snorkel on my Avalanche - silt. Deep, so fine it gets in every nook cranny and pore SILT!!!. Like the Taco driver above, my intake was low behind the right rear wheel and the opening was only 1"x3" - not real adequate for a 5.3L V8.
//
We did a trip (pre-snorkel) to Anza-Borrego and were on a trail that had been removed from maps and deemed "impassable due to extreme silt" 2 years prior. However, we were using a 6 year old map (oops - lesson #1 - buy current trail maps). We were blasting along at ~45mph behind a group of Raptors from Michigan through deep sand, and hitting areas of even deeper sand. After a few miles, all of the Raptors turned hard left onto another trail off through the desert - but our map said to continue straight to our destination - so we did. Then, I saw it ahead of us, a HUGE silt bed with tire tracks that were down ~12" from the center. It was high-sided on the right with elevated train tracks. I knew I could stop in the deep sand or we'd be stuck and it was 108F outside. So, I told everyone to hang on and put my foot in it and aimed left tires at the center and my right tires up on the elevated area in an attempt to minimize my differentials digging in. We hit it doing about 70mph and made it through. When we got to firm dirt, I stopped and checked my airfilter and it was completely clogged with silt.
//
Two weeks later, we were on a more firm ground trip, but it had a water crossing. I looked at the water and decided that it was too near my low intake opening to take the chance and I backed away from it.
//
I installed a Safari snorkel with an S&B CAI (custom sealed box) and prefilter wrap (for when I'm in sand-dust). My 5.3L absolutely gets more air - particularly at speed because yes it does ram air (I'm a drag racer and CAN feel the difference in torque and power changes with my butt). It is getting cleaner air, more of it (opening is 2x the size and doesn't route around through my fender). If you subscribe to the theory that you cannot ram air into an engine without a turbo or supercharger, well then I guess damn near every race car driver, race car designer, and crew chief on the planet in the history of motorsports racing are wrong. A turbo and supercharger force MORE air into the cylinder than the engine SHOULD be allowed to handle (which is why on a nitro car the fuel/air combo is compressed to a near solid state prior to igniting. Pushing more fuel/air than they are supposed to handle is the primary reason they go BOOM so frequently that nitro drivers are called "Bomb Jockeys".
//
Now - the point previously made about an engine being an airpump is correct. Which means for optimal effect - both the intake and the exhaust sides of the equation need to be addressed. The addition of quality headers and exhaust tubing, muffler go along ways to being able to rid the system of that air more efficiently - which allows for the engine to intake more air in the first place. With a carbureted engine, more air equates to needing more fuel or you'll lean out - so you change jets. In a modern EFI engine that is computer controlled, the computer can only detect the amount of air - not control it, so it will automatically increase or decrease the fuel allowed into the cylinders based on the amount of O2 being registered. More air = more fuel -> more power. That power can go one of two ways: Less MPG because you are putting your foot in it more to enjoy said power; Or, better fuel mileage because the increased power translates to less throttle having to be used to get the vehicle moving - or the same fuel mileage but with better performance/capability. Adding in a tuner that changes the timing (what most of the off the shelf tuners do) and you adjust how the engine uses that air-fuel mix - advanced(performance) = more HP at WOT, retard(tow) = more torque and HP at lower RPM. Pick your poison.
//
Another thing to consider is - why would someone make the comment: "Well, they may be appropriate in Australia, but not in the US?" Seriously? Last time I checked, we both have: sand, dirt, clay, rock, water, mud, and silt.
//
I have since gone back, with my snorkel, and crossed said river when it was 2x higher than when I backed out of it pre-snorkel. To each his own on the snorkel thing, but to say they are not functional simply because someone lives in the US is just ignorance at its finest.
//
So - do I have a snorkel? Yes. Do I have it for a functional reason beyond the "cool factor"? Yes. Was that reason born out of experience? Yes. Did I do anything else to help optimize the performance? Yes. Does my truck run better with the combination of parts I put on it? Yes. Is my vehicle more capable with the snorkel than it was without the snorkel? Yes (also raised all breathers). Am I more comfortable/confident in certain situations with the snorkel? Yes.
//
We did a trip (pre-snorkel) to Anza-Borrego and were on a trail that had been removed from maps and deemed "impassable due to extreme silt" 2 years prior. However, we were using a 6 year old map (oops - lesson #1 - buy current trail maps). We were blasting along at ~45mph behind a group of Raptors from Michigan through deep sand, and hitting areas of even deeper sand. After a few miles, all of the Raptors turned hard left onto another trail off through the desert - but our map said to continue straight to our destination - so we did. Then, I saw it ahead of us, a HUGE silt bed with tire tracks that were down ~12" from the center. It was high-sided on the right with elevated train tracks. I knew I could stop in the deep sand or we'd be stuck and it was 108F outside. So, I told everyone to hang on and put my foot in it and aimed left tires at the center and my right tires up on the elevated area in an attempt to minimize my differentials digging in. We hit it doing about 70mph and made it through. When we got to firm dirt, I stopped and checked my airfilter and it was completely clogged with silt.
//
Two weeks later, we were on a more firm ground trip, but it had a water crossing. I looked at the water and decided that it was too near my low intake opening to take the chance and I backed away from it.
//
I installed a Safari snorkel with an S&B CAI (custom sealed box) and prefilter wrap (for when I'm in sand-dust). My 5.3L absolutely gets more air - particularly at speed because yes it does ram air (I'm a drag racer and CAN feel the difference in torque and power changes with my butt). It is getting cleaner air, more of it (opening is 2x the size and doesn't route around through my fender). If you subscribe to the theory that you cannot ram air into an engine without a turbo or supercharger, well then I guess damn near every race car driver, race car designer, and crew chief on the planet in the history of motorsports racing are wrong. A turbo and supercharger force MORE air into the cylinder than the engine SHOULD be allowed to handle (which is why on a nitro car the fuel/air combo is compressed to a near solid state prior to igniting. Pushing more fuel/air than they are supposed to handle is the primary reason they go BOOM so frequently that nitro drivers are called "Bomb Jockeys".
//
Now - the point previously made about an engine being an airpump is correct. Which means for optimal effect - both the intake and the exhaust sides of the equation need to be addressed. The addition of quality headers and exhaust tubing, muffler go along ways to being able to rid the system of that air more efficiently - which allows for the engine to intake more air in the first place. With a carbureted engine, more air equates to needing more fuel or you'll lean out - so you change jets. In a modern EFI engine that is computer controlled, the computer can only detect the amount of air - not control it, so it will automatically increase or decrease the fuel allowed into the cylinders based on the amount of O2 being registered. More air = more fuel -> more power. That power can go one of two ways: Less MPG because you are putting your foot in it more to enjoy said power; Or, better fuel mileage because the increased power translates to less throttle having to be used to get the vehicle moving - or the same fuel mileage but with better performance/capability. Adding in a tuner that changes the timing (what most of the off the shelf tuners do) and you adjust how the engine uses that air-fuel mix - advanced(performance) = more HP at WOT, retard(tow) = more torque and HP at lower RPM. Pick your poison.
//
Another thing to consider is - why would someone make the comment: "Well, they may be appropriate in Australia, but not in the US?" Seriously? Last time I checked, we both have: sand, dirt, clay, rock, water, mud, and silt.
//
I have since gone back, with my snorkel, and crossed said river when it was 2x higher than when I backed out of it pre-snorkel. To each his own on the snorkel thing, but to say they are not functional simply because someone lives in the US is just ignorance at its finest.
//
So - do I have a snorkel? Yes. Do I have it for a functional reason beyond the "cool factor"? Yes. Was that reason born out of experience? Yes. Did I do anything else to help optimize the performance? Yes. Does my truck run better with the combination of parts I put on it? Yes. Is my vehicle more capable with the snorkel than it was without the snorkel? Yes (also raised all breathers). Am I more comfortable/confident in certain situations with the snorkel? Yes.
Last edited:
MOguy
Explorer
I am not against snorkels, I know they have benefits.
BUT
You are wrong about ramming air into a normally aspirated motor. Nobody who knows about motors said you can. You can modify a motor to suck more air. You even write about this above. If it needs more air you can help supply it with more air but with out a supercharger or turbocharge you will not force or ram air into a motor. That is why they call it forced induction.
If you think you are ramming air into a normally aspirated motor you are delusional. If you truck preforms better modifying the air intake this it is because the previous system didn't flow enough air. All a "ram air" intake does is make more air available to the motor, they don't actually ram the air in.
If you think otherwise pleas explain how your motor is forcing extra air into itself vs sucking it in.
Last edited:
Airmapper
Inactive Member
I get what you are saying, and I get what he is saying, so I'll try to explain it the way I see it.
You are assuming the engine is only getting a set volume of air each stroke without any accommodation for pressure change. With pressure inside the airbox higher than atmospheric pressure, more air enters the cylinder than would if it was simply pulling from the atmosphere. Granted in the case of ram air I figure this increased PSI is minimal, negligible most likely, but still more air will enter than would have normally.
Say you have a 5 gallon air tank. You open the valve so it's neutral to the atmosphere, and there is 5 gallons of air inside. Now close the valve and put some pressure in the tank. It's still only 5 gallons of space, but there is more air inside. You have increased the density of air inside the space. Thus more nitrogen, more oxygen, same space.
Given the engine is pulling from a slightly pressurized source, it pretty much cancels out any resistance it would have had pulling air from the atmosphere and through the intake plumbing. Air simply has to move from the intake and into the cylinder instead of being drawn through the whole system. I figure that is where most of the observed performance gains come from is this canceling out of the resistance through the plumbing. But since it is at a slightly higher pressure, for each stroke, slightly more air enters that space than would if there was no pressure on it at all.
MOguy
Explorer
If a normally aspirated motor can use more air it would suck it in if it were available. If you can provide it with better air it would run better. If it can't suck enough you starve it (high altitude, dirty filter or other restrictive flow) it will run worse. But you can't force air into it.
Last edited:
This isn't beating a dead horse, though if you think it is you're under no obligation to participate in the conversation. This is a legitimate question. I'm sure there are are plenty of 4x4 owners in North America who have a legitimate need for a snorkel due to where they live and how frequently they explore. However, I also think it's a reasonable proposition that there are many casual 4x4 enthusiasts who add a snorkel to their rig for looks more so than any real need. As I said earlier, in my several years of exploring parts of the northeast, I can only think of 1-2 instances where a snorkel would have been necessary, and in those cases there were nearby bypasses to the water obstacles. And yet, I've seen more than a few rigs in my neck of the woods running snorkels; maybe some of them are going to offroad parks where water crossings are a frequent occurrence, but I'm willing to bet that some of those rigs have never seen a water crossing and the snorkel was just one of many modifications in order to project a specific image. Just like I'm willing to bet some of the lifted Jeeps I see driving around my area have never actually been offroading.
Yes, North America has sand, silt, dust, mud and water just like Australia. The point the podcast was making was that the likelihood of the average North American 4x4 encountering enough of that stuff to warrant a snorkel isn't the same as it is for the average 4x4 traversing the Canning Stock route or some other remote track in Australia.
Also, I highly doubt an aftermarket snorkel is adding HP or fuel economy to a modern, electronically-controlled engine. The stock cold air intakes are generally well-suited to bringing in cold air; I doubt a snorkel is adding anything in terms of the amount of temperature of the air.