Thoughts on lockers and dual t-cases

[ntsqd]

Good point Andre, if nothing else is done to the front, do upgrade or strengthen the idler arm. I think the creme of the crop is the Total Chaos unit, but it forces the use of a part that I consider inconsistent with Overlanding type use. Beyond it I do not know what the options are. Drew Persson has long ago disappeared in to the mist.

 

[JSimmons]

Hi all,

Some great input from you guys. I really appreciate the responses. Yes, I realize that "expo" is a website and not an off-road activity. :elkgrin: Just being lazy instead of writing out "expedition."

In regards to the value of the truck and the modifications I'm willing to do to it; well yes, I do feel that it would be worth it seeing that I opted to buy a 21 year old truck for $1500.00 instead of welcoming $25k - $30k of debt on a new truck. Obviously, it will probably need some refurbishing and some updating of sorts. That's okay though. I'm not new to working on vehicles, so that's not a problem. The cost of the mods? Well, that's where someone who is fairly new to off-roading relies on the experience of the veterans on boards like these to get me pointed in the right direction before I spend money on modifications that are really not needed. I can assure you guys that I am not going to (nor able to) throw cash at modifications that seem "cool" but serve little purpose for my needs. Although snorkels do look cool...

For the most part, I want to keep the truck as close to stock as possible, in terms of drivability (I recognize the contradiction in wanting it to exceed stock capability while maintaining stock drivability). It is not only going to be an expedition/overland rig, but will also be used to go fishing, hunting, haul yard debris, etc. etc. That being said, I don't mind replacing "weak" parts with better performing/more reliable aftermarket parts. This will be the truck that I drive to get to wheeling events with the full intent of being able to drive it home after taking it on the trail.

It may be a tall order, but I want this truck to be able to do many things well, not just be outstanding at one activity.
:coffeedrink:

 

[Casper]

All is great advise. Mine is similar.

Since you are new to the sport, I would suggest spending a little time going through your rig and making sure everything is in good working order. Replace the bits that are worn or suspect with quality stock parts, invest in some good AT tires (everyone has an opinion on what is the best, so expect to spend some time reading) and then take it out and start camping, fishing and enjoying the trails. As you gain experience you will start noticing the things that you will want. Lower gears, maybe lockers and armor. Who knows, in a few years you may find that it is time for an SAS and some more rock crawling, or you may find you like a tad more speed and want a better ride and stronger IFS setup. Heck, you may decide you want a motorcycle. :Wow1:
What I am trying to say is take it slow, and see what kind of outdoor activity you really like. This is what I did. Started with a stock truck and went with folks who I thought had the same interests as me. As I gained more expereance I started building my rig. I was very happy with the IFS setup for 5 years. It served me well, and taught me to be a better driver. It took 5 years, but I then figured out the goal for my truck. Something that would be able to handle the Rubicon and Fourdice Creek, AND drive comfortable from California to Florida and back again. I think I accomplished the goal quite well.

Long winded post, and only one mans opinion, but I think it is sound advise.

Good luck.
Cheers,
Josh
&
Porthos
:smiley_drive:

 

[valkyrie]

Joel, not to bag on your rig by any means, but it's not an optimal platform for anything but light wheeling in it's IFS state. The steering is incredibly flimsy, so much so that there is a lifetime recall on some original components. The lower control arm frame mounts are notorious for spreading unless you tie them together. Torsion bars are only going to get you so much lift (if they aren't rusted in place), and cranking the t-bars for lift will come at the expense of comfort. The rear will require attention, as yours probably has serious saggy butt, and correcting & lifting at the same time will require modifications to either the panhard bar or it's mount. All that, and you'll get a mildy lifted rig suited for light duty. The chain driven t-case doesn't give you a lot of options for easily upgrading either.

So, to build a reliable, capable rockcrawler out of it, you are looking at spending a ton of time and money on fabrication for a SAS and drivetrain components/improvements- which is fine if that's what you want to do.

I would recommend that you that you should regularly wheel it (somewhat gently) in environments you prefer to frequent before you spend a dime. You may find that the break it & fix it cycles are too frequent and decide to get a more solid platform, or you may decide to enjoy it for what it is and go overlanding in comfort with OEM reliability as a benefit... unless you've got the 3.0, which is another story altogether.

As far as lockers go, I wouldn't lock the front. A rear locker and good technique will take you almost anywhere you could want to go. An open front is much better for your CV's lifespan. One nice thing is that a freewheeling hub swap is very easy for your truck- important for overlanding reliability.

Sorry so long winded, but I'm a little familiar with these trucks. Good luck with whatever course you choose!

 

[JSimmons]

Hi all,

Again, thanks for the great replies. I absolutely agree that I should take it wheeling in conjunction with the activities I like doing, i.e.-fishing, before I start modifying it. No argument there. Of course, I will be replacing parts that need replacing due to age and abuse, but I don't really consider those modifications. I'm a pretty big fan of OME stuff as that is what I had on my old Jeep TJ (which I modified like crazy before I knew what I wanted or what I needed and ended up selling it due to bad gas mileage and bad drivability). It does have saggy butt and the suspension is pretty harsh right now. A full suspension refreshing is in order here in a bit, but I have to tackle the rusty fenders first. I'm not too concerned with getting crazy amounts of lift in order to fit huge tires. Josh - I was thinking of getting some 32 inch AT tires as a half-way point between the 31s and 33s. But, if they're too hard to find I'll probably just replace the stock 31s it has.

My rig is definitely going to be a light duty rig as far as wheeling goes. I would like to keep the IFS for now, but build it as far as it can go. I do not mind spending money on modifications that warrant the cost. I know that I am not going to be taking this rig up the Rubicon or anything like that. Didn't really have that in mind when I bought it. However, I would like the abilities of the rig to exceed my own abilities. Not that I think I am the end-all, be-all of drivers or whatever, but I have had quite a bit of driver's training both on and off-road thanks to the DoD. :ar15: It's always nice to know that the rig you're piloting can be pushed just a bit further than you might want to take it. Well...you've at least got to take it to the limit once or twice so that you know where that limit is. Then set your parameters accordingly.

Thank you for the advice on the lockers. I was reading the Aussie Locker website and they recommended locking the front. ??? They state that due to the limited flex in the IFS, I am most likely to lift a front tire than anything else, hence, lock the front. What do you guys think about that? I definitely want to keep the life-span of my CVs so I'm thinking of locking the rear as Chris recommends.

Just as an FYI, I have the 22RE w/ 5 speed and my front hubs are manual locking hubs. Also, if I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure the transfer case on this model of 4Runner is gear driven, not chain driven. Didn't that come on the first year of the 2nd Gen 4Runners? I don't know for sure but that was the impression I was under.

Again, thanks for all the input. I'm fairly new to actually wanting to modify Toyotas for wheeling (my wife had a '95 4Runner 3.0 she wouldn't let me do anything to since it was "hers"), so as long as you guys point me in the right direction when I get a hair-brained idea I'd appreciate it.
:elkgrin:

 

[JSimmons]

Chris - Cool GoOverland.com website by the way.

 

[AndrewP]

It all depends on where you want to go and what you want to do.

Since you already have a 4wd truck, just go somewhere and see how it does. A basically stock truck can take on virtually the entire American desert, the easier trails in Moab and other "4 Wheel Drive" destinations. Spend a year learning what you like, and fixing all the little stuff that doesn't currently work on your truck. Get some good tires, and just go. Don't focus on how much stuff you "need", just go.

Once you limit out on what your truck can do, then is the time to make the decisions about your future direction. If you are considering dual cases (an absolutely game changing mod by the way) then you are also near the point of a soild axle swap, and that, I would not do.

Just me personally, but if you are at the point of considering a solid axle swap, and can't do it yourself, you will be time and money ahead to just switch platforms. Buy a truck with it already done and sorted out, or buy a Land Cruiser that will have stock heavy duty axles/steering from the factory. [It is really tough to beat an FJ60. They are cheap to buy, tough as nails and when you want dual cases, Marlin makes one for it!]

The one thing on your list I would do now, is a rear locker. That can be extremely helpful even in places you may go in a basically stock truck. For your rear locker there is really only one choice-ARBs. They are transparent mod and drive normally the 99% o the time you spend commuting or highway driving. The front can wait, as a locker will add more stress to your front axle components, and they are not super strong, so....

One thing not on your list, but should be an early purchase, is a winch. Then if your enthusiasm carries you into some place you shouldn't be, you can get out with out a huge strain on your drivetrain. Hard to beat an M8000 for a good intersection of price and meeting the need.

In summary, start travelling as soon as your truck is working well and all maintenance is done and up to date. Learn what you like. What you have will go a lot of great places on 31 inch tires, with minimal chance of breakage.

You will likely find in the end, that you need to mod your truck as much as the friends you go with, so choose them carefully.

 

[Casper]

I have known a few IFS folks who have only had one locker, and it was in the front. Works well, and it is sound advise. There is a reason front wheel drive cars do better than rear wheel drive cars in slick situations. If you do this, you have to just be smart when using it. The front has parts that break easier.

32's are a nice size. Had them on the X for awhile. Look at LesSwab, that's where I got mine. Good prices and great tires. Heck, if you end up getting the Wildcats, I will sell you two great ones for $100. (They were on my trailer, maybe 1000 miles total)

Don't be scared of the IFS. It may not be as strong as an SAS, but it is VERY capable. We have taken 3 Nissan Xterra's and one Nissan Pathfinder on the Rubicon. All were set up with 3inch lifts and good tires. Made it fine, (with some effort of course) and no body damage.

I would also get yourself a good recovery kit. Straps, shovel snatch blocks yadda yadda. A winch is great, but not needed. A good quality "Comalong" or even a highlift can accomplish the same thing for less cost. This allows you the time to figure out if you "need" a winch and what kind of mounting system for it.

Now, all this talk about your truck, and no photo's of it. Post some up.

Cheers,
Josh
&
Porthos
:smiley_drive:

 

[valkyrie]

I'm a pretty big fan of OME stuff as that is what I had on my old Jeep TJ (which I modified like crazy before I knew what I wanted or what I needed and ended up selling it due to bad gas mileage and bad drivability). It does have saggy butt and the suspension is pretty harsh right now. A full suspension refreshing is in order here in a bit, but I have to tackle the rusty fenders first. I'm not too concerned with getting crazy amounts of lift in order to fit huge tires. Josh - I was thinking of getting some 32 inch AT tires as a half-way point between the 31s and 33s. But, if they're too hard to find I'll probably just replace the stock 31s it has.

My rig is definitely going to be a light duty rig as far as wheeling goes. I would like to keep the IFS for now, but build it as far as it can go.

Thank you for the advice on the lockers. I was reading the Aussie Locker website and they recommended locking the front. ??? They state that due to the limited flex in the IFS, I am most likely to lift a front tire than anything else, hence, lock the front. What do you guys think about that? I definitely want to keep the life-span of my CVs so I'm thinking of locking the rear as Chris recommends.

Just as an FYI, I have the 22RE w/ 5 speed and my front hubs are manual locking hubs. Also, if I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure the transfer case on this model of 4Runner is gear driven, not chain driven. Didn't that come on the first year of the 2nd Gen 4Runners? I don't know for sure but that was the impression I was under.

Trust me, just lock the rear. If you lift a front tire either let the rear move you along or pick another line- both are much better for the rig than using excessive wheelspin or locking the front. Like I said, that particular IFS system is relatively weak in relation to other IFS setups. If you later find that you are being excessively denied, you can then lock the front also. 4.88 will be good with 33's, try 4.56 for 31-32's. Since you're not looking for excessive tire size, that's another reason to mildly lift your vehicle and focus on retaining the drive-ability. T-case went chain in '88. Keep the lessons of your Jeep on your mind, as the less you stray from center the happier I think you'll be. Also, as was stated above, start with the things you know you'll need and probably use in the meantime (i.e. quality recovery gear).

Chris - Cool GoOverland.com website by the way.

Thanks, wish I could take credit for it's design. We're not ready to launch the store application, but it'll be soon, very soon.

 

[JSimmons]

The one thing on your list I would do now, is a rear locker.

If there was anything on my mind as far as doing major modifications early-on, this would be it.

One thing not on your list, but should be an early purchase, is a winch. Then if your enthusiasm carries you into some place you shouldn't be, you can get out with out a huge strain on your drivetrain. Hard to beat an M8000 for a good intersection of price and meeting the need.

Never thought I'd need that right away but I'll take it into consideration. Give me an excuse to put a new front bumper on.

You will likely find in the end, that you need to mod your truck as much as the friends you go with, so choose them carefully.

:sombrero:

 

[JSimmons]

I have known a few IFS folks who have only had one locker, and it was in the front...If you do this, you have to just be smart when using it. The front has parts that break easier.

I'll keep that in mind but I think I'm leaning toward locking the rear now.

32's are a nice size. Had them on the X for awhile. Look at LesSwab, that's where I got mine. Good prices and great tires. Heck, if you end up getting the Wildcats, I will sell you two great ones for $100. (They were on my trailer, maybe 1000 miles total)

If were out west I'd go to Les Schwab. Good stuff there. I'd take you up on the used tires as well, but I'm getting a government paid vacation to Afghanistan soon, so I'll have to wait on the tires for now. Don't want new tires sitting for too long w/o driving.

I would also get yourself a good recovery kit. Straps, shovel snatch blocks yadda yadda...A good quality "Comalong" or even a highlift can accomplish the same thing for less cost.

I printed this section off as proof to the wife that I need to purchase these items because an off-road expert said so. :elkgrin:

Now, all this talk about your truck, and no photo's of it. Post some up.

Forthcoming this afternoon!

Trust me, just lock the rear. If you lift a front tire either let the rear move you along or pick another line- both are much better for the rig than using excessive wheelspin or locking the front.

Will do.

4.88 will be good with 33's, try 4.56 for 31-32's. Since you're not looking for excessive tire size, that's another reason to mildly lift your vehicle and focus on retaining the drive-ability. T-case went chain in '88. Keep the lessons of your Jeep on your mind, as the less you stray from center the happier I think you'll be. Also, as was stated above, start with the things you know you'll need and probably use in the meantime (i.e. quality recovery gear).

I am definitely tempted to go nuts like I did with the Jeep, but drive-ability in more environments than one is top on the list. It's gotta be good on the pavement, on the trail and acceptable on the rocks (still single malt though).

Thanks, wish I could take credit for it's design. We're not ready to launch the store application, but it'll be soon, very soon.

Well, I did the whole Facebook "fan" thing so hopefully it'll let me know when that time comes.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[JSimmons]

Josh,

Here are a few photos of the rig when I first bought it. It is marginally less ugly now, thanks to white rustoleum.

She has earned the affectionate name of, "Ugly Betty." :Wow1:

More photos to be posted once I get back to Clarksville.

 

[zidaro]

Just as an FYI, I have the 22RE w/ 5 speed and my front hubs are manual locking hubs. Also, if I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure the transfer case on this model of 4Runner is gear driven, not chain driven. Didn't that come on the first year of the 2nd Gen 4Runners? I don't know for sure but that was the impression I was under.

Joel,
YES, you have a gear driven TC. Chain driven in Tacomas.

Sounds like you are starting to formulate a plan and heading the right direction.
checked out your rig shots. Nice start platform, youve got some work to get her up to snuff- as others have stated, make sure the thing is RELIABLE regardless of the wheeling you are drawn to. The lamest thing to do is have a buddy /self breakdown while out having a great time due to some lack of maintenance. VERY different from breaking cuz you wheel your ****.

My opinions(cuz they matter)- Rear locker on IFS is a better idea than front. Keeps the stresses off the CV's/weaker ifs gears. This would be my #1 traction mod on a stock rig. It will make a HUGE difference in how easily you can surmount basic obstacles. I personally like Detroits in the rear of my toyotas. Always there and BOMBER/RELIABLE. ARB handsdown if you need a selectable. I have no issues with detroits on a DD. Spools and a DD suck. The E-locker has issues and the housing/bearings/gears are also a weaker gear design than the 8.4thirds that came in those newer models. Your rear axle will accept the early toy 8" gears/housings from both 4cyl. and V6(stronger).
With 31-33" tires- I prefer 4.88 gearing for ANYTHING other than hauling *** on the freeway.

DUALS- I have the Marlin Dual Ult. in my crawler and i have a single TC with 4.7gears(double low)in a 874runner(dualcase setup is in the garage). I really like the 4.7 single case gearing. It allows normal street and 4xhigh driving and when you need the LOW- you got it. Also can upgrade to dual ult. very easy by throwing in a t-case(adapted) and a new set of driveshafts.

Rip those bumpers and Running boards off- get a strong set of F/R bumpers and a 9.5 winch, some real rock sliders for the inevitable.

Suspension- KISS. till you find limitations and what you like. IFS has proven itself (I am a huge fan of SA). A mild torsion bar upgrade and some nice 3" springs in rear will give you a huge advantage over stock w/o BIG $ into IFS. Then find out what you like.

I have opinions all day, I'll save you from that and say I feel this would be a great start. 1st gen. runners RULE, glad to see you joined the club.:victory:

 

[blakeape]

I think you are wise to consider these things before jumping head over heals into a build. I have a daily driver, 1988 4runner 3.0 V6, 5spd (chain drive t-case by the way) that is going to be my next more expo based project. I also have a 1996 Tacoma 3.4 V6 5spd, dual cased with 4.7's, on a Dana 60 front, 14 bolt rear 42 inch Iroks, full exo cage, cut out cab and bobbed bed (but I can still sleep in it). I bought the Taco in 1997 and went through IFS coil spacers to IFS coilovers with 33's and 4:88, to a Dana 44, e-locker rear with 4:88's on 35-37's. Then I put duals into it and eventually the 1 ton axles. The tacoma is awesome, goes anywhere and is still registered and driven on the street frequently, though it usually goes onto the trailer whenever I go more than an hour or two away. I kind of wish I left it alone when it had a single t-case, the dana 44 front with 4:88's and an ARB locker and a TRD E-locker rear on 35 inch MTR's. It drove great on the highway, got decent fuel mileage and did excellent off road. I drove it from Connecticut to Moab to Montana where I now live. Took trips to Vancouver Island in Canada and numerous rocky mountain camping trips in WY and MT with my girlfriend and dogs. I then could have gone nuts with a first gen 4 runner on 1 tons and had the 4 seats I always desired when wheelin'.
My plan for my 88 4runner is eventually a low SAS with rears up front, open front diff and selectably locked rear. 4:88 gears, tires in the 33x10.50's or maybe 255's range, Single t-case, good homemade bumpers and sliders and eventually the 1998 3.4 V6 I have sitting in my shop. The duals are great but I notice the extra slop in the drivetrain from the extra case when driving with a manual transmission, plus you are turning the entire extra case which creates a little drag and another thing to go wrong IE: bearings, inputs, etc. Good luck with what ever you do, thank you for your service and be safe over seas.

 

[JSimmons]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the replies. Yeah, I know she is a bit rough, however, as far as the drivetrain goes, she's pretty solid. Just a few quirks here and there. But, I've been driving the rig as a DD for several weeks now with no serious failures, other than a few old fuses giving up the ghost.

I don't plan on doing anything real wild with the rig. Not going to turn it into a caged rock crawler or anything. The biggest modification I plan on doing is installing a locker, and if I'm going to crack the pumpkin then I might as well install 4.88's or 4.56's. Ditching the running boards and finding some better bumpers is high on the list as well. However, I'll have to pay some big $$ for bumpers as I have no welding skills needed to make a homemade set. I'd like for a rear bumper to have an integrated tow hitch with the ability to mount a spare tire, gas can and water can, etc. etc.

Anyhow...thanks for the input. Perhaps a 4.7 gear t-case will be on the list down the road. We'll see if I can justify the cost of time and $$.