Towing with the 22RE?

[NorthernWoodsman]

Well, I waited I too long (24 hrs.)

The boat is sold. It was a San Juan 21. Great little boat. Would've been perfect for trips on the Columbia River. Was asking about towing mostly because I have friends on San Juan Island in the Puget Sound and wanted to take the boat up there this summer for some day sails around San Juan, Shaw, Lopez and Orcas Islands.

Oh well, guess that means I don't have to sell the Wildernest to finance the boat now.

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I'll be upgrading those brakes this summer and I'll let ya'll know if I find another boat worth trading the Wildernest for. At least now I know I can tow something that size.

Now, I gotta get back to school work so I can finish this term and get to work upgrading my suspension, air intake and putting on the Wildernest.

 

[corax]

Forget the Taco/Tundra brakes. They won't bolt up and they don't fit inside of a 15" wheel.

The best, easy upgrade is the V6 4rnnr calipers. Search IH8mud for details. If you're IFS then I think that you have the biggest rear drum brakes offered.

I compiled a bunch of info here on brake upgrades (did you know Wilwoods will bolt right up? Toyota used a very common 3.5" caliper mount pattern), and here's my T100 caliper write-up - really though, as long as everything is in good working order you probably wouldn't need to upgrade the brakes. My wife drove the 4runner cross country twice with a 3-3.5k pound trailer on the back bumper and no problems (it is engine swapped so hills aren't as bad) - I wouldn't have let her drive it if I thought the brakes were anything less than capable. The only issue that came up was too much trailer tongue weight, and the bumper puts the receiver a bit far back, which took some weight off the front end and it would slide a bit more easily than she liked in heavy rain.

 

[ntsqd]

I worked in wilwood's R&D Engineering dept for 2 years designing calipers, big brake kits, and related hardware.

My saying to forget the Taco/Tundra options was based on their intended rotor not fitting inside of the usual 15" wheel used on this generation 4Runner. They are also the 5.25" mount bolt spacing rather than the 3.5" mount bolt spacing of the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd gen 4wd's.
IMHO using the original rotor with a Taco/Tundra caliper is very likely to be a waste of time unless there is a very specific goal that they will meet. If you really want to increase braking torque you need to increase the rotor's diameter. Messing with the calipers only gets you a short distance down this road before you go beyond the comfort limits of total system ratio. If you're experiencing heat induced pad fade you need to go to rotor with larger vents (wider rotor).
Or you could cheat and go to hydra-boost.

Brake balance is a tricky thing. Some minor changes in bore size(s) yield great results. Other seemingly similar changes yield a disaster. It's all about driver preference, and that is terribly subjective. What is an acceptable pedal feel to one driver is horrible to another. Going to calipers with large piston bores does increase clamping force at any given line pressure, but at the price of pedal feel. The hydraulic ratio increases which makes the pedal feel "softer". For some this is OK, for others it is not.

I frequently run into the idea that a firm pedal is a sign of good stopping power. This is not true at all. Good stopping power can come with a soft and gushy feeling pedal or it can come with a rock hard feeling pedal. The key is the boost curve in the brake booster combined with the total system leverage ratio [mechanical (pedal) ratio multiplied by the hydraulic (bores) ratio]. The booster alone can totally drive the pedal feel.

More comments on the topic of brakes:
http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/256361-comments-brakes.html

 

[Poorboyota26]

I've towed with my 22re 4Runner with 31's...a lot. Nothing stupid heavy though, I towed a ski boat across town and that was a little too heavy for the little 22re and stock brakes.

Upgrade to the V6 master cylinder (1" bore) and the V6 front Calipers. Then keep an eye out in the junk yard for a 2nd gen runner that has "limited" stickers. These usually have 4.88's in them (almost all were Auto's). you can regear very cheaply that way. ($300) just swap out the diffs.

I have the 4.10's and it's slow as snails but it always gets there. The 4.56 gear ratio, while beneficial with the 31's, is kind of a waist of time IMO if you are looking to go to 33's or 35's in the future just go for the the 4.88's. If you get the 4.88's it will be screamin at highway speeds but you will be able to tow a load at 65mph too.

Hope this helps.
Happy trails!

 

[jh504]

I dont think you would have an issue with the axles. Toyota axles are tough. Like you said, stopping and handling at highway speeds would be the question. I used to pull a lot of weight with my Tacoma (2500lbs-4000lbs) when I was doing remodeling. It had the 3.4L though and pulled great, but didnt like to stop all that well. I also put an add-a-leaf in the back to help out the springs. Why dont you just upgrade the brakes/gears and throw a 3RZ in there for good measure.:bike_rider:

 

[jjdavids]

Towing with a smaller vehicle is much safer if your trailer is equiped with good brakes. Pulling power is second to stopping.

I've towed 5000lbs or more with my 85 4Runner several times but wouldn't dare without trailer brakes.

 

[ntsqd]

snip...
Upgrade to the V6 master cylinder (1" bore) and the V6 front Calipers.

I see this recommended a lot. Doing the math the change from my 84's original total system leverage ratio isn't all that great. I'd suggest only doing the calipers. Then if the pedal is too soft to then go with the m/c.

Then keep an eye out in the junk yard for a 2nd gen runner that has "limited" stickers. These usually have 4.88's in them (almost all were Auto's). you can regear very cheaply that way. ($300) just swap out the diffs.

That is news to me, interesting.

 

[NorthernWoodsman]

Thanks for all of the advice.

From what I can deduce from reading all of the replies I should be able to upgrade to the T100 front brakes no problem. I'll probably go with rotors, calipers, pads, and possibly the 1"mc. Incidentally, I was going to this with the '85 solid axle I used to own, but using LC front brakes. Used to have a thread saved on my old computer before it crashed that detailed how to do the swap.

I never mentioned why I wanted to do this did I? Well, after owning the older '85 Toyota 4x4 and now onto my second and newer one I have noticed the front rotors on both warp relatively easy. My mechanic was telling me that Toyota set the brakes up, at least on older models, to deliver power to the brakes at a 80/20 ratio. 80% to the front and 20% to the rear. Makes since because the rear brakes on my truck are original from 1994 and are still at 80%! I bought my 1985 truck with warped brakes, put new rotors on and after a road trip across the country and back (18,000 miles) the rotors were warped. My current truck has warped rotors too. They stop me, but there is that feeling of grab and (let)go that bothers me to no end. I'm sure it isn't safe at higher speeds either.

So, basically I want to upgrade to something that can handle the weight of the truck and being used 80% of the time to stop without warping so easily. Seems like everyone that has done the upgrade is happy with it so I guess we'll see later this summer when I make the change.

 

[ntsqd]

On the Live Axle trucks the vented rotor upgrade is to use rotors & calipers from an FJ60. The next step up is to use the FJ60 rotors, but the non-differential bore V6 4Rnnr calipers. (The stock FJ60 calipers are differential bore of the same two sizes as the original LA caliper, only a touch wider in the rotor slot so that the vented rotor fits through them.)

I would assume that since 3rd gen IFS calipers bolt onto the Live Axles so long as the FJ60 rotors are used that those calipers will bolt to any pre-Taco IFS truck too.

As to warped rotors. The pedal pulses and it certainly feels like the rotors are warped, but it is an uneven transfer layer. Modern brake pads actually transfer some of the pad compound into the metal of the rotor. If that transfer is uneven you get a pulsing brake pedal.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_padremoval.shtml
Those rotors that are truly warped are low quality castings. There is one primary source for those. Buy better rotors. Buy OEM if you can.

 

[corax]

As to warped rotors. The pedal pulses and it certainly feels like the rotors are warped, but it is an uneven transfer layer. Modern brake pads actually transfer some of the pad compound into the metal of the rotor. If that transfer is uneven you get a pulsing brake pedal.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_padremoval.shtml
Those rotors that are truly warped are low quality castings. There is one primary source for those. Buy better rotors. Buy OEM if you can.

Yes, good reading . . . I've handed more than a few articles from StopTech's White Pages to technicians, usually after they insist on using the terms "warped" or my personal pet peeve "out of round" (I'd love to see an out of round rotor)