Trailer Power - Solar vs. Generator???

Bergger

Explorer
I've still been thinking about this issue. I'd like to maintain our single battery while out in the field. We typically set up camp then explore from there. The trailer won't be moving. I could still hook it up to the truck and let it idle for an hour or so but that does not seem very appealing to me. Does anyone know how long I'd have to idle my Tacoma to charge the battery? Now I can't afford a large, say 80 watt or so, solar set up now so I was thinking of getting one of these 18 watt panels and controllers. I figure over time I can add an additional panel if needed. Does anyone have any experience with ICP Sunsei Tech? They have an 18 watt panel with controller for $179.

http://www.campinggeardepot.com/sto...1200-18-Watt-Kit-RV-Solar-Panel_40419425.html

Would this be sufficient to keep the battery maintained? Our only power draw is the Waeco 50 and misc lights.
 

egn

Adventurer
There are many factors that play a role regarding this issue so it is not easy to give a definite answer.

It is right to assess the daily energy usage first:
- Engel fridge about 25 Ah/d
- light about 5 Ah/d

This is a total of 30 Ah/d, without laptop and radio.

If you would only use the charging through the alternator every 4 days the size of the battery would have to be about a total of 4 d * 30 Ah/d = 120 Ah * 2 = 240 Ah.

The reason to double the size is that you could use typically only about half the capacity of a deep cycle battery. The battery shouldn't be discharged below 20 % state-of-charge and you typically can charge it with the alternator and standard regulator only to about 80 % with typical driving times. The extra 10 % headroom is compensation for an aging battery. So the system should be sized that you typically use only about 50 % of the installed battery capacity.

So if you are not able to install such a high capacity you can improve the situation by the following steps:

Improve alternator charging
The problem with alternator charging is that with very long wire runs the voltage drop is so high that the charge voltage is not high enough to get significant energy into the battery. The first step is to use thicker wires and better connectors. Doubling the wire thickness will half the voltage drop.

But this will still not be enough because the the typical alternator regulator doesn't have a charge voltage that is required to charge deep cylce batterys. The charge voltage at AGM/GEL deep cycle batteries should be about 14.3-14.4 V at 20° C, regulators use only about 14.0 V. For flooded batteries the charge voltage must be even higher to recharge batteries with a few hours of drive. So what you need is a regulator which higher charge voltage. But that is not so easys because you also have your starter battery of your vehicle and this still has to have the same charge voltage as before.

There are two solutions:
  • You can either use a high voltage regulator and a split diode with voltage drop at the starter battery connector.
  • Or you can use a voltage booster or DC/DC charger.
I prefer the second solution because you don't have to change anything in the vehicles electrical system. You just connect a device like the Sterling Battery-to-Battery Charger to your vehicles starter battery and the battery in the trailer and everything is fine. Of course, you should upgrade the wire path so that it can sustain the amperage.

This all will shorten the charging time considerably. You should be able to recharge your battery within a few hours of time to nearly 100 %. This gives you an extra of about 20 % usable battery capacity. So you probably can reduce installed capacity to about 170 Ah.

Additional source: solar panel
Depending on weather, time of year and the area you are, the amount of energy you can collect by using a solar panel varies heavily. So there is really no easy answer to the question how large a panel should be. The other point is that you may not be able or may not wish to place your vehicle in the sun because it is just to hot there. Just think about placing your trailer with the Engel in the sun. As the environmental temperature rises the Engel uses more and more power. This may not be compensated by the higher energy production of the panel. So I think that a kind of removable panel may be of advantage. This way you can the panel into the sun and the trailer can stay in the shade.

Regarding the size of the panel there is a rule of dumb:
In summer in an area in the mid you get about 300 Wh/d per 100 W installed power on average. If you go south it goes up to about 400-500/d Wh, if you go north it drops to about 200 Wh/d. In winter this values drop considerably, especially in the north. You can improve the situation considerably, especially in the northern areas, if you track the sun. This would be a further advantage for a removable/movable panel.

So if we take the average of 300 Wh/d then a 100 W panel delivers about 25 Ah/d. So the effective daily use of battery capacity in the above example would drop to about 5 Ah. Of course, this doesn't mean that you can now reduce the battery capacity to 5 Ah/d * 4 * 2 = 40 Ah. You have to have some reserve for days with bad weather and you have to size everything for the worst case regarding the season and area you would like to camp. And you may also reduce the size of the solar panel to reduce cost. Battery capacity may be cheaper than the necessary solar wattage to compensate.

So take some numbers and run a calculation. Look at the costs for the battery and solar panel and find a combination that is comfortable to you. And please, give some extra reserve. I.e., the lifetime of the battery increases considerably if it is not discharged that deep.

Additional source: generator
A generator is very convinient because it delivers power as you need it. The generator itself and the fuel is cheap.

But it also has the disadvantage that it makes annoying noise and bad smell. Even if you don't bother, others staying in the same area may have a problem with it. It is also some kind of paradox that on one side someone seeks out for nice places in wonderful nature, with all kind of natural noises and smells, an on the other side than runs a noise and stinking generator just to recharge the battery. I always would try to find a solution that is less disturbing even if it costs a bit more. I would use the generator only in real emergency.


BTW, I run the high power and high energy electrical system in my truck only with the alternator. As I indent to be mainly in northern areas I have no solar panels installed. I have only a cheap small generator for emergency if something failes.
 
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egn

Adventurer
Bergger said:
They have an 18 watt panel with controller for $179.

http://www.campinggeardepot.com/sto...1200-18-Watt-Kit-RV-Solar-Panel_40419425.html

Would this be sufficient to keep the battery maintained? Our only power draw is the Waeco 50 and misc lights.

Expect the Waeco to use about 15-20 Ah/d. For light add another 5 Ah. So in total you should expect about 25 Ah/d.

The above panel produces only about 5 Ah/d. This may help a bit, but it is not really sufficient to meet your requirements. The difference of about 20 Ah/d has to be supplied by the battery.

And $179 for just 18 W ist not really cheap. As was mentioned above, go for a bit larger standard sized panel and a charge controller and you get much more bang for the buck.

You may also increase your battery capacity, but you then should also look whether alternator charging can be improved.
 

ntsqd

Heretic Car Camper
One of the things that may have been mentioned, but I didn't see, about alternator charging is their low output at engine idle speeds. From somewhere forgotten I have the 9000 rpm number as the ideal alt speed for charging. May have come from a friend of mine that does starter/generator/alternator work, not sure.

In any case the drive pulley ratio is set such that the alternator spins at or near it's most ideal speed at the engine's intended cruise rpm. That means that it is spinning much too slow at idle to be truly efficient. In theory it is possible to change the drive ratio, but then you are seriously in danger of over-speeding the alternator when driving. Then there is the efficiency issue of idling the prime mover for such a low return.

Over the long term I feel that one of the newer, ultra quiet small generators (~1kW) like Honda's EU series is a better, more efficient option. Those that I've come in contact with require one to come within a couple feet of them to be able to determine if they are running or not. Unless you carry a 100' extension cord and put the generator in your neighbor's campsite I doubt they'll even be aware of it's being used.
 

Tucson T4R

Expedition Leader
I'm upgrading my battery system in the KK to dual Deka 105AH batteries (compliments of the AT boys). My current system is a bank of 4 smaller batteries that total 140AH. I have been using my Honda EU2000 generator to recharge when needed on longer stays. I am usualy by myself so it's normaly not a concern about intruding on other's piece and quiet. On my last 8 day stay I did run the generator from late morning to late afternoon to top off the batteries about every 3rd day. In ECO mode, my fellow campers agreed they almost couldn't here it unless they walked over near the generator. Pretty darn quiet.

I do appreciate the total quiet though and look forward to running it less with my upgraded power reserve and upgraded 20 amp charger that will reduce the amount of time it takes to charge up the batteries.


Edit: BTW, I run a Waeco 84 Qt power pig :)
 
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Bergger

Explorer
I appreciate all the input. Many things I really did not think about. Thanks. Well it certainly is a conundrum isn't it. I also got some info from Mario and for now I think I will add an insulating cover to the Waeco and use the truck alternator. I too was thinking about the rpm's when charging off the alternator. I'd be nice if more modern vehicles had throttles to idle at higher speeds. I guess I'll just have to have the wife sit in the drivers seat and depress the gas pedal for a while! :D On a side note does anyone know any place that sells LED rope style lights or novelty lights that plug into 12V? I can't seem to find them anywhere.
 

ntsqd

Heretic Car Camper
Some ECU's increase the idle speed when the A/C is on. A friend used a diode in the wire (so the A/C didn't come on) and had a switch that allowed him to increase the idle speed this way. Did it in a yota 4A-GE powered Samurai crawler. Might be an avenue to explore.
 

pete.wilson

Adventurer
Hey

I'll throw an idea out there. If you ran two batteries (series 31 trolling motor type deep cycle (mine have 242 reserve minutes each) and the inverter, you would not have to worry about recharging capability of solar for a normal 2-4 day camping trip because you would have enough capacity to handle the fridge without the need to recharge VS. being forced to use some type of charging method because the single battery/inverter wont last long enough for 2-4 days. Not to mention the fact that your already using 1 battery and an inverter to run the fridge now; the only additional outlay would be the cost of a single battery and a case. This is far cheaper than buying a generator and having to carry fuel to put in it. Cheaper than any solar panel and a controller if you use one and then there's storage of the solar panel. Even with my setup, a simple soalr charging system could still be used if wanted. I just charge my batteries when i get home or use jump cables if I'm real desperate but that hasn't been need yet. It also isolate any chance of something happening to the vehicles charging system in the event of a failure by being self contained system. I used 4awg on my power leads from the battery to the inverter and then 14awg to the outlets.
 
ntsqd said:
One of the things that may have been mentioned, but I didn't see, about alternator charging is their low output at engine idle speeds. From somewhere forgotten I have the 9000 rpm number as the ideal alt speed for charging. May have come from a friend of mine that does starter/generator/alternator work, not sure.

In any case the drive pulley ratio is set such that the alternator spins at or near it's most ideal speed at the engine's intended cruise rpm. That means that it is spinning much too slow at idle to be truly efficient. In theory it is possible to change the drive ratio, but then you are seriously in danger of over-speeding the alternator when driving. Then there is the efficiency issue of idling the prime mover for such a low return.

Over the long term I feel that one of the newer, ultra quiet small generators (~1kW) like Honda's EU series is a better, more efficient option. Those that I've come in contact with require one to come within a couple feet of them to be able to determine if they are running or not. Unless you carry a 100' extension cord and put the generator in your neighbor's campsite I doubt they'll even be aware of it's being used.


Thats exactly the reason why I upgraded my alternator. I'm using a Mechman 20-920-237 220 which gives me 220amps at just over 2100 rpm and a substantial boost about equivalent to the entire stock output at idle
http://www.mechman.com/alt.htm
 
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egn

Adventurer
Higher amperage of the alternator isn't much of use if you don't have a regulator that produces a high enough voltage so that the battery accepts higher ampere.

Please check the voltage during charging directly at the battery. If it isn't considerably above 14 V at normal temperature than you have to do something with the wires and/od the regulator. This is especially important if you have placed the battery in a trailer.
 
Thats the nice thing about the Mechman...I was able to bypass the Jeep ECU as the Mechman is internally regulated. I'm putting scanguage verified 13.9-14.3 at the batteries depending on operating conditions.
 

elcoyote

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0004
Bergger said:
I'd be nice if more modern vehicles had throttles to idle at higher speeds. I guess I'll just have to have the wife sit in the drivers seat and depress the gas pedal for a while!

The way I solved this was with with a hand throttle from Rubicon Express
http://www.rubiconexpress.com/Products.aspx?pn=1651&Vid=4DD51B4966350
You can make you own from parts at your local bike shop too. Since I drive a stick I primarily use it for for loading up the clutch on hills with the brake on but I have also used it for battery charging and improving winch performance as well.
 

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