Jasper Jones
Observer
Wow, I should have went back and read your first post again, you did it on a waterjet! Excellent!
Transformer seating solution
- Thread starter mgmetalworks
- Start date
mgmetalworks
Explorer
It could be done on a laser too. I know from experience with the CNC plasma in my shop that it probably wouldn't be able to resolve some of the smaller slot and tab features very well.
MG
MG
mgmetalworks
Explorer
You could technically do it both ways but this first set will be side by side between the wheel wells.
OOOOOOH, That is a great idea for a camper setup.
mgmetalworks
Explorer
Earlier this week, Bluvan came up to Oregon for the installation. First of all, it was a pleasure meeting Dan and I very much appreciate the opportunity I had to design and fabricate a product like this for his van. It was fun and challenging and a great chance to meet a fellow van enthusiast.
The install was about as much of a pain as I thought it would be. Before he got here I built an alignment jig for marking and drilling the mounting holes. It worked ok...about as good as anything could have worked given that there isn't a flat and true surface on the inside of any van body since the beginning of time. It all worked out though and it turned out great!!!
It must have been heat exhaustion or I was busy guzzling celebratory beers but I only got a few pictures of the seats mounted inside the van and most of them were blurry.
The one thing that turned out to be really awesome is that when the seats are folded up, they don't take up much of the usable cargo space at all. When they're mounted like they are, they sit in an area that is difficult to utilize for cargo because of the odd shape of the wheel well. Turns out, you can stack all kinds of stuff around them AND walk back and forth with ease. I think that's my favorite feature of these seats.
Here's a couple of pics of the seats right after I finished fabrication.
Michael G.
MG Metalworks, LLC
Newberg, OR
The install was about as much of a pain as I thought it would be. Before he got here I built an alignment jig for marking and drilling the mounting holes. It worked ok...about as good as anything could have worked given that there isn't a flat and true surface on the inside of any van body since the beginning of time. It all worked out though and it turned out great!!!
It must have been heat exhaustion or I was busy guzzling celebratory beers but I only got a few pictures of the seats mounted inside the van and most of them were blurry.
The one thing that turned out to be really awesome is that when the seats are folded up, they don't take up much of the usable cargo space at all. When they're mounted like they are, they sit in an area that is difficult to utilize for cargo because of the odd shape of the wheel well. Turns out, you can stack all kinds of stuff around them AND walk back and forth with ease. I think that's my favorite feature of these seats.
Here's a couple of pics of the seats right after I finished fabrication.
Michael G.
MG Metalworks, LLC
Newberg, OR
mgmetalworks
Explorer
Thanks!!! Come on down! I love talkin' shop!
I can also let you know the next time I'm in the area visiting in-laws (just minutes from Issaquah). We'll be up there at least once this summer.
MG
I can also let you know the next time I'm in the area visiting in-laws (just minutes from Issaquah). We'll be up there at least once this summer.
MG
mgmetalworks
Explorer
I've thought about what to do with this project over the last month or so and I've decided to discontinue any further development. It is really far too involved for me to make any money in "production" so I'm just going to drop it an move on. It was a great learning experience though. I'm happy with how the first set turned out and it will be great for Dan once his interior is all done. I don't see it working into my interior plans though.
.
Which means...I have a pile of parts to make the second set that I won't be using. There were some in-process design changes that I had to do to make the first set work but a person with some fabrication skills can do the same or come up with their own solutions. If anyone were interested, I'd be happy to walk them through what would be needed to make everything work.
.
Included would be all of the waterjet cut parts, linkage parts, bushings, latches, springs and what I have left of the hardware. I can provide you with basic drawings and email/phone support if needed too (within reason).
.
PM me an offer or questions if you're interested. You'd be responsible for shipping charges so keep that in mind. (unless you're local and can pick it up in either Newberg or Hillsboro).
.
Which means...I have a pile of parts to make the second set that I won't be using. There were some in-process design changes that I had to do to make the first set work but a person with some fabrication skills can do the same or come up with their own solutions. If anyone were interested, I'd be happy to walk them through what would be needed to make everything work.
.
Included would be all of the waterjet cut parts, linkage parts, bushings, latches, springs and what I have left of the hardware. I can provide you with basic drawings and email/phone support if needed too (within reason).
.
PM me an offer or questions if you're interested. You'd be responsible for shipping charges so keep that in mind. (unless you're local and can pick it up in either Newberg or Hillsboro).
89s rule
Adventurer
I'm not sure about fitment on width, etc, but these look very similar to 80 series 3rd row seats. Which mount on the wheel well and fold upagainst the sides when not in use. New lower brackets would need to be designed but that might be an option to cut down on so much major fab work. Only down side woudl be that the seats fold down only, instead of back, but this might be able to be fixed with a different hinge mechanism.
MGMetalworks, as always great work and thought for going out of the box.
MGMetalworks, as always great work and thought for going out of the box.
mgmetalworks
Explorer
I've thought of a number of ways to make this cheaper and with less work involved and, in volume, tube frames with a minimum of laser'd bracketry and gusseting would probably be the best approach to the design. The problem isn't coming up with a more economical approach to manufacturing, the problem is finding the demand for the volume needed to support a more automated approach. I've spent the last 12 years working in either manufacturing engineering or mechanical engineering roles and have a business specializing in product development and manufacturing consulting...my mind is always thinking in terms of efficiency and cost just out of habit. With that said, there are sometimes huge differences in the design/manufacturing strategy depending on volumes. For this project, I took the route that I did for the first prototypes to minimize the need for custom fixturing. The "slot and tab" waterjet design was really easy to fit together with basically nothing more than a flat welding table and some right angle blocks/clamps. If the idea took off, I was fully prepared to adjust the design for a higher volume approach, likely with dedicated tooling. The idea hasn't taken off though. This thread has nearly 3000 views at the moment and less than a handlful people have contacted me for more information. I've also shown the design to a number of customization shops and gotten pretty tepid responses. So based on the data I have in front of me, there isn't enough "buzz" to warrant spending another XX hours on the design and tooling up for a production run. I'm not bitter about it at all, that's just the reality of the situation. I enjoyed the challenge of the project. It turned out really awesome and I'm proud of what I accomplished...I'm just pulling the plug on the project because it isn't worth my time any more. There are bigger and better and higher margin opportunities to pursue.
.
I have a pretty big arsenal of technologies available to me through the connections I have in the fabrication business. You name a cutting-edge manufacturing technology and I have probably used it in one of the projects I've done. The trouble is, most of those projects were for Fortune 500 companies who could absorb the costs of using those technologies. CNC tube forming can be a cheap manufacturing method but in low volume it doesn't pencil out, especially for the DIY automotive enthusiast crowd. No offense meant to anyone on the forum but I doubt any of you are going to pay $500-1000 for a one-off CNC bent tube (which is often what it takes to make custom parts unless you have a buddy with the equipment and he owes you a favor). You need to be making at least 10 of something for it to start really making sense to go that route. And even then, a lot of the companies around here won't even bid the job if its under a certain amount. I don't blame them either. You tie up a machine with a bunch of low margin parts, you're losing the opportunity to crank out a lot of high margin parts. So sometimes you have to make parts another way...
.
Right now I'm in the middle of quoting out the parts for the Sienna seat mounts. 10 units seems to be the magic number for CNC forming vs. "slot and tab" parts with welding. I can eliminate SOOOOOOO much work just by forming the parts. Anything under 10 parts though and the cost per unit goes up so much that it doesn't make sense to pay for that. Labor and sanding disks are cheap compared to a $125/hr press brake.
.
Do you see the other problem here though? Do I wait for 10 people to express enough interest in the transformer seats before I order parts or do I order parts and hope that someone buys them? The "high volume" design for the transformer seat would probably have a BOM cost (bill of materials) somewhere in the neighborhood of $750 (the prototype was much more than that btw). So to make 10 of them, I have to front $7500 and all the labor. I'm into them $1200-1500 each or so? I'm going to hang $12k-$15k out in the wind on the off chance that someone might buy a set? Not with the lack of interest I've gotten, no way. Again, that's just the reality.
.
I have another product that I've been trying to generate some buzz about and it is a prime example of simplicity of design, low-cost and high-volume manufacturing methods (USA made too). I fronted the money to make the first 100 (many thousands of dollars) and I have multiple vendors all lined up to crank up production anywhere from 1000-10,000 units per month.....IF the demand ever comes around. It hasn't yet despite the effort I've made to get it in front of large retailers and online stores. That's the problem, without demand, what's the point in making more? And if the retailers want to beat you up so bad on the wholesale price and you're margin is only a couple bucks a unit, is it really worth the effort? In volumes of 100's of thousands or millions, it may be. But a couple bucks a piece on a few hundred units to manage vendors, shipping logistics, returns, customer questions, etc...? What would you do? I can think of a number of easier ways to make a few hundred bucks....
.
I could talk for days about this kinda stuff. There are so many ideas floating around in my head for products but without a sales channel, its tough to get any farther than CAD models and functional prototypes. I've got the design and manufacturing covered. I just need to find the marketing/sales person to partner up with.
Trying to help out with the buzz. Some photos of the installed seats still lacking the final upholstery. The goal was to get a forward facing solution as the centerpiece of a smb style EB50 build. Folded up and the cargo capacity is maintained. All the way down a decent sized bed and as a seat with room for 3. MG took this concept and made it real.
NLPRacing
Observer
I've thought of a number of ways to make this cheaper and with less work involved and, in volume, tube frames with a minimum of laser'd bracketry and gusseting would probably be the best approach to the design. The problem isn't coming up with a more economical approach to manufacturing, the problem is finding the demand for the volume needed to support a more automated approach. I've spent the last 12 years working in either manufacturing engineering or mechanical engineering roles and have a business specializing in product development and manufacturing consulting...my mind is always thinking in terms of efficiency and cost just out of habit. With that said, there are sometimes huge differences in the design/manufacturing strategy depending on volumes. For this project, I took the route that I did for the first prototypes to minimize the need for custom fixturing. The "slot and tab" waterjet design was really easy to fit together with basically nothing more than a flat welding table and some right angle blocks/clamps. If the idea took off, I was fully prepared to adjust the design for a higher volume approach, likely with dedicated tooling. The idea hasn't taken off though. This thread has nearly 3000 views at the moment and less than a handlful people have contacted me for more information. I've also shown the design to a number of customization shops and gotten pretty tepid responses. So based on the data I have in front of me, there isn't enough "buzz" to warrant spending another XX hours on the design and tooling up for a production run. I'm not bitter about it at all, that's just the reality of the situation. I enjoyed the challenge of the project. It turned out really awesome and I'm proud of what I accomplished...I'm just pulling the plug on the project because it isn't worth my time any more. There are bigger and better and higher margin opportunities to pursue.
.
I have a pretty big arsenal of technologies available to me through the connections I have in the fabrication business. You name a cutting-edge manufacturing technology and I have probably used it in one of the projects I've done. The trouble is, most of those projects were for Fortune 500 companies who could absorb the costs of using those technologies. CNC tube forming can be a cheap manufacturing method but in low volume it doesn't pencil out, especially for the DIY automotive enthusiast crowd. No offense meant to anyone on the forum but I doubt any of you are going to pay $500-1000 for a one-off CNC bent tube (which is often what it takes to make custom parts unless you have a buddy with the equipment and he owes you a favor). You need to be making at least 10 of something for it to start really making sense to go that route. And even then, a lot of the companies around here won't even bid the job if its under a certain amount. I don't blame them either. You tie up a machine with a bunch of low margin parts, you're losing the opportunity to crank out a lot of high margin parts. So sometimes you have to make parts another way...
.
Right now I'm in the middle of quoting out the parts for the Sienna seat mounts. 10 units seems to be the magic number for CNC forming vs. "slot and tab" parts with welding. I can eliminate SOOOOOOO much work just by forming the parts. Anything under 10 parts though and the cost per unit goes up so much that it doesn't make sense to pay for that. Labor and sanding disks are cheap compared to a $125/hr press brake.
.
Do you see the other problem here though? Do I wait for 10 people to express enough interest in the transformer seats before I order parts or do I order parts and hope that someone buys them? The "high volume" design for the transformer seat would probably have a BOM cost (bill of materials) somewhere in the neighborhood of $750 (the prototype was much more than that btw). So to make 10 of them, I have to front $7500 and all the labor. I'm into them $1200-1500 each or so? I'm going to hang $12k-$15k out in the wind on the off chance that someone might buy a set? Not with the lack of interest I've gotten, no way. Again, that's just the reality.
.
I have another product that I've been trying to generate some buzz about and it is a prime example of simplicity of design, low-cost and high-volume manufacturing methods (USA made too). I fronted the money to make the first 100 (many thousands of dollars) and I have multiple vendors all lined up to crank up production anywhere from 1000-10,000 units per month.....IF the demand ever comes around. It hasn't yet despite the effort I've made to get it in front of large retailers and online stores. That's the problem, without demand, what's the point in making more? And if the retailers want to beat you up so bad on the wholesale price and you're margin is only a couple bucks a unit, is it really worth the effort? In volumes of 100's of thousands or millions, it may be. But a couple bucks a piece on a few hundred units to manage vendors, shipping logistics, returns, customer questions, etc...? What would you do? I can think of a number of easier ways to make a few hundred bucks....
.
I could talk for days about this kinda stuff. There are so many ideas floating around in my head for products but without a sales channel, its tough to get any farther than CAD models and functional prototypes. I've got the design and manufacturing covered. I just need to find the marketing/sales person to partner up with.
The company I work for sells supplies to diemakers, metal fabricators, metal stamping companies, etc., so I see a lot of different stuff that my customers are doing. When I saw the seat, mandrel bent tubing jumped out at me. But you're right, you would have to have the volume to make it worth it. What kind of fabricating equipment do you have? Do you have your own brake, shear, waterjet, etc.?