I still don't see how another few minutes for something that happens maybe once every few hundred thousand miles is a big deal.
Truck Suggestions? Let's hear your TC hauler thoughts!
- Thread starter montypower
- Start date
I still don't see how another few minutes for something that happens maybe once every few hundred thousand miles is a big deal.
redthies
Renaissance Redneck
I have electric jacks and Fastguns. Even with those, I’d bet you’re at least 10 mins to do an off/on. Not that it matters much. You might not get your flat in your level driveway, or in the daytime on a suny day. The last time I got one (yes, the only one in 102,000 miles) was in the middle of nowhere, on a rough rocky sidehill with my boat in tow. Not anywhere I’d like to be trying to offload my camper in 5 minutes. If you only drive flat, level highway with 10’ wide paved shoulders, unloading to change a flat might work for you.
Having said that, I also can’t imagine where you would mount your spare that having your camper on would prevent access, or what this had to do with which truck you buy to haul said camper?
Having said that, I also can’t imagine where you would mount your spare that having your camper on would prevent access, or what this had to do with which truck you buy to haul said camper?
redthies
Renaissance Redneck
Forgot to mention I got my flat at 11:00 pm with an overtired wife on-board. Luckily I carry plugs, and managed to patch it up enough with 3 plugs. Drove out 2 days later and had a tire shop put a patch inside. Spare never came off the truck.
That's kind of where my "hundreds of thousands of miles" comment came from. The last flat I had other than on a trailer was with P-metric tires in high school...20 years and 3 or 4 hundred thousand miles ago. I too carry a plug kit and a compressor. Properly inflated LT tires with excess load capacity are pretty hard to puncture and plugs will cover the majority of issues.
::Squish::
Observer
OK here are my thoughts.
I have a 2000 Ford F350 7.3 P-stroke, manual trans, manual hubs 4x4 long box SRW supercab with a Bigfoot 1500 camper.
Stock suspension, dirt focused tires, stock tune.
We bought the rig in 2015 from it's original owner, we had been looking for a truck and camper for about 5 years on an off before that.
We also have a 03 Taco prerunner with a canopy. Which proved to be too small for our family of three humans and a K9.
We like to off grid camp as much as possible, and we like to explore, but we don't rock crawl or wheel.
Graded dirt roads, forest service, fire and logging roads that need a spotter and high clearance is about our limit.
There's a bunch of things we factored in, and then we found our rig for a great price.
For us the diesel was a compromise based on the deal we got. we were not looking for a diesel but ended up with one.
It's my first personally owned diesel, (I've driven plenty of company trucks and vans that were oil burners) my thoughts...
Diesel
Diesels are expensive to buy, the surcharge is anywhere from $5K-$9K over the base sticker.
In CA Diesel fuel is much more expensive vs gasoline save for about 2 months this year when it was cheaper.
My truck gets about 13-16 mpg, my dad's 2000 F350 Dualie with the V10 gasser, gets 12 unloaded and about 8 loaded.
My 7.3 needs an oil change every 5,000 miles and it uses 1just under 4 gallons of oil at each change and a $50 filter every other change. I do as much work on the rig as I can.
I ran the numbers, I don't have them handy. but from a fuel economy and operating costs stand point, Diesel doesn't work out very well for us as we only drive the rig about 10K miles a year.
Diesels eat into the payload of a truck, this isn't a big deal if you are towing, but it's a big short coming if you are loading a TC.
The 7.3 isn't fast, but it will climb just about anything in the mountain of the west with ease.
The Diesel is DIRTY, it stinks, it will roll coal at elevation, I don't like leaving the engine running unless I have to have it running.
And for us the pollution is a factor. It pretty much erases all the other things we do to leave a smaller pollution foot print.
The sound of the 7.3 is loud, with the camper on it's challenging to carry on a conversation while under power.
One-Ton Long Bed 4x4 manual SRW
This is my first one-ton I've owned, but not the only one I've driven, same with the long box and 4x4.
It's also the oldest tech suspension I've had in a car or truck in 25 years.
The camper lives on the truck 90% of the time so it's not our daily, but then we both work from home.
Living with an empty 1-ton is easy-peasy, but I've plenty of mile driving small and med sized commercial vans and trucks for work.
Parking is more of a pain vs the Taco, but we can almost always find a spot close enough to our destination that I don't worry about it.
The manual trans only really sucks in gridlock traffic or backing the truck up to load the camper. Otherwise it's a non issue. (and both the wife and myself drive it. This however is a non issue as there is no longer manual trans offered in the one-ton class.
The long box, it's nice to have. I can load three bikes in the bed and my Pelican 1660 that I use as my "trunk" behind the bikes.
I can carry full size sheets of plywood, and it will haul a lot of mulch or other stuff I need to do the stuff I need a truck to do.
Getting used to old school 4x4 has been a non issue, but there are some things I need to remember, and there's more maintenance to do.
A 21' long rig, is long especially with leaf spring front end, it needs a pilot boat and a tug to make a u-turn.
Even in 2000, ford could not make a steering system that is connected directly to the steering wheel. it still feels like you are steering by wires pulleys and some sort of Rube Goldberg system. We call it a Suggestion Wheel, not a Steering Wheel.
The SRW handles just fine, compared to my pop's DRW long bead F350. I like the SRW better.
Loaded there's a little sway and we are looking for better suspension solutions, but we really don't want to lift the rig up more than it already is. It's at 10' with the camper on, and without running boards or sliders it's a pain to get into for our older parents.
In the end we would buy the rig again. but we also wouldn't seek out a diesel and we wouldn't likely buy one of the post DEF emission controlled diesels. We would buy another one-ton long box again, and a supercab instead of a super crew cab.
a 22 foot long total length is as long as we would ever want to have and value the long box over the larger cab.
We got a good enough deal that it erased some of the drawbacks and costs of owning a diesel, but I'd still much rather have that extra payload, lower fuel costs, ease of maintenance, and cleaner burning engine of a gasser
I have a 2000 Ford F350 7.3 P-stroke, manual trans, manual hubs 4x4 long box SRW supercab with a Bigfoot 1500 camper.
Stock suspension, dirt focused tires, stock tune.
We bought the rig in 2015 from it's original owner, we had been looking for a truck and camper for about 5 years on an off before that.
We also have a 03 Taco prerunner with a canopy. Which proved to be too small for our family of three humans and a K9.
We like to off grid camp as much as possible, and we like to explore, but we don't rock crawl or wheel.
Graded dirt roads, forest service, fire and logging roads that need a spotter and high clearance is about our limit.
There's a bunch of things we factored in, and then we found our rig for a great price.
For us the diesel was a compromise based on the deal we got. we were not looking for a diesel but ended up with one.
It's my first personally owned diesel, (I've driven plenty of company trucks and vans that were oil burners) my thoughts...
Diesel
Diesels are expensive to buy, the surcharge is anywhere from $5K-$9K over the base sticker.
In CA Diesel fuel is much more expensive vs gasoline save for about 2 months this year when it was cheaper.
My truck gets about 13-16 mpg, my dad's 2000 F350 Dualie with the V10 gasser, gets 12 unloaded and about 8 loaded.
My 7.3 needs an oil change every 5,000 miles and it uses 1just under 4 gallons of oil at each change and a $50 filter every other change. I do as much work on the rig as I can.
I ran the numbers, I don't have them handy. but from a fuel economy and operating costs stand point, Diesel doesn't work out very well for us as we only drive the rig about 10K miles a year.
Diesels eat into the payload of a truck, this isn't a big deal if you are towing, but it's a big short coming if you are loading a TC.
The 7.3 isn't fast, but it will climb just about anything in the mountain of the west with ease.
The Diesel is DIRTY, it stinks, it will roll coal at elevation, I don't like leaving the engine running unless I have to have it running.
And for us the pollution is a factor. It pretty much erases all the other things we do to leave a smaller pollution foot print.
The sound of the 7.3 is loud, with the camper on it's challenging to carry on a conversation while under power.
One-Ton Long Bed 4x4 manual SRW
This is my first one-ton I've owned, but not the only one I've driven, same with the long box and 4x4.
It's also the oldest tech suspension I've had in a car or truck in 25 years.
The camper lives on the truck 90% of the time so it's not our daily, but then we both work from home.
Living with an empty 1-ton is easy-peasy, but I've plenty of mile driving small and med sized commercial vans and trucks for work.
Parking is more of a pain vs the Taco, but we can almost always find a spot close enough to our destination that I don't worry about it.
The manual trans only really sucks in gridlock traffic or backing the truck up to load the camper. Otherwise it's a non issue. (and both the wife and myself drive it. This however is a non issue as there is no longer manual trans offered in the one-ton class.
The long box, it's nice to have. I can load three bikes in the bed and my Pelican 1660 that I use as my "trunk" behind the bikes.
I can carry full size sheets of plywood, and it will haul a lot of mulch or other stuff I need to do the stuff I need a truck to do.
Getting used to old school 4x4 has been a non issue, but there are some things I need to remember, and there's more maintenance to do.
A 21' long rig, is long especially with leaf spring front end, it needs a pilot boat and a tug to make a u-turn.
Even in 2000, ford could not make a steering system that is connected directly to the steering wheel. it still feels like you are steering by wires pulleys and some sort of Rube Goldberg system. We call it a Suggestion Wheel, not a Steering Wheel.
The SRW handles just fine, compared to my pop's DRW long bead F350. I like the SRW better.
Loaded there's a little sway and we are looking for better suspension solutions, but we really don't want to lift the rig up more than it already is. It's at 10' with the camper on, and without running boards or sliders it's a pain to get into for our older parents.
In the end we would buy the rig again. but we also wouldn't seek out a diesel and we wouldn't likely buy one of the post DEF emission controlled diesels. We would buy another one-ton long box again, and a supercab instead of a super crew cab.
a 22 foot long total length is as long as we would ever want to have and value the long box over the larger cab.
We got a good enough deal that it erased some of the drawbacks and costs of owning a diesel, but I'd still much rather have that extra payload, lower fuel costs, ease of maintenance, and cleaner burning engine of a gasser
::Squish::
Observer
So it's a personal deal, Here's what I found when I looked into it, and when I have driven post DEF diesels.
For me, for my buying, for what and how I use the truck, the drawbacks modern (post DEF) diesels have, is totally not worth it for me.
According to Ford the latest diesel 4x4 F350 when driven in dusty conditions has a 7500 mile oil and filter change interval with 13 quarts of oil. And now you also have a DEF refill. Which balances out the two quarts less oil it takes over the 7.3
Base line operating costs are going to be pretty close, though the modern diesel might take a slight edge due to the better MPG.
The modern diesels are still very dirty, even with DEF and other emission control devices. Tail pipe emissions are still very high. But because the trucks fall into a different emissions class it's hard to find data on them vs what you would find on a ULEV or PZEV sedan.
And they do stink, Diesel as a fuel stinks, and the trucks while running stink.
Granted no where near as bad as a stock well running 7.3, but they are still bad.
Resale value doesn't really apply to me since I keep my vehicles a very long time. which is why I didn't bring it up in my first post.
My Taco is an 2003 and I bought it new. I have two motorcycles that I've kept for 25 years and one that I've had for 40 years.
I expect to keep the taco until the plastic bits are breaking so frequantly that it no longer makes sense to keep it, same with the current F350.
But yup you are right you do retain a higher resale value, but no where near 100%, it's much closer to around 60% or less within the first 5 years or so but then those trucks all had about 100-150K miles on them.
At least that's been my experience with the shop trucks and vans I've been around.
Not all is bad. A modern stock, post-DEF diesel is much more quiet over the 7.3. it's a world of difference being in the cab, plus most of the new trucks come loaded with a lot more sound deadening techniques that just were not used back in the 7.3 days.
And they make a whole lot more power compared to the 7.3, and if you are willing to chip and delete them, it's really astonishing the power they make, but then they are very much back to being loud, and stinky and dirty and potential ticking time bombs when it comes to poorly built tunes.
I know there's a hardcore diesel cult, people love these things, and for good reason, if you really need one, they are the right truck to have, and if you really need to be convinced you need one, there are a lot of good reasons to use to convince yourself to own one.
But there are some serious downsides to the diesel power-plant, and it's only going to get harder as time goes on for diesel. I anticipate diesel tax and other fee increases, like we saw in CA this year when the taxes jumped $.22 a gallon. We are especially due for a federal tax increase and more states will jump on the increasing taxes and fees for diesel bandwagon.
I’m on my second def diesel. I got 100% of my diesel cost back when I traded my 2014 with 100k back in November.
I can’t smell a thing when mine idles. I drive it every day.
The tailpipe is clean enough to eat off of. I can’t say that about my wife’s 12000 mile grand Cherokee. But are you really comparing emissions between a truck with a 20,000# towing capacity and a ULEV compact sedan?! Sounds like you need a Subaru and a teardrop camper.
Dusty conditions means a gravel pit or constant dirt roads. Do you drive there? Never on road or is it more like 5% dirt, which is a lot. For normal driving the computer tells you to charge the oil every 12-15,000 miles.
Def cost is a non issue. $12 every few thousand miles.
You are basing your assumptions on bad data and your experience with an old dirty diesel. But what do I know? I only own and operate one.
Modern diesels aren’t for everyone but most of your thoughts are just plain incorrect.
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I can’t smell a thing when mine idles. I drive it every day.
The tailpipe is clean enough to eat off of. I can’t say that about my wife’s 12000 mile grand Cherokee. But are you really comparing emissions between a truck with a 20,000# towing capacity and a ULEV compact sedan?! Sounds like you need a Subaru and a teardrop camper.
Dusty conditions means a gravel pit or constant dirt roads. Do you drive there? Never on road or is it more like 5% dirt, which is a lot. For normal driving the computer tells you to charge the oil every 12-15,000 miles.
Def cost is a non issue. $12 every few thousand miles.
You are basing your assumptions on bad data and your experience with an old dirty diesel. But what do I know? I only own and operate one.
Modern diesels aren’t for everyone but most of your thoughts are just plain incorrect.
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::Squish::
Observer
I guess you might have had some trouble understanding my posts. While I own a 7.3, I have plenty of experience driving pre and post def diesels. Sprinters, Fords, Cummins, Fiats, hell I have spent time driving VWs. Before they got recalled.
And yes my truck operates in what used to be called severe duty.
Heavy, slow, stop and go traffic while carrying a very heavy load until I get out of the city and then I spend as much time as I can in the mountains or in the forests which here in the west means dust.
My camper is on my truck 90% of when it rolls. And it will sit for a few weeks at a time, since it is not my daily.
These are all very hard operating conditions for a diesel.
Top of this forum is Hard-Side Truck Campers, that means in-the-truck payload is part and parcel of this discussion. I don't personally care a lick about towing, and it is likely I won't ever need to tow 10k pounds let alone 20k.
And I wouldn't tow much more than 2k behind a Subaru. My Outback didn't even have a hitch.
But bringing up ULEV & PZEV was not to compare a 1-Ton to them but to point out that while you can easily find emissions data for sedans but because 1-ton trucks fall into a different class the tailpipe emission data is harder to come by.
I care about driving as clean a truck as I can afford. And I am pointing it out that when comparing equivalent years and conditions a stock gasser is a cleaner choice vs a stock oil burner.
As for DEF costs, it adds to the total cost of ownership. And it's an increase in cost over the gasser and over older pre def engines. I have to look at everything when weighing the pros and cons of a truck. The cost, complexity and increased exposure to system malfunctioning of modern diesel emission equipment weigh into that calculation.
My data isn't bad, my data is one set, based on a lifetime of experience driving personally and professionally over a very broad selection of vehicles using diesels and gas engines for hauling loads in the western USA. Where it can very dry, where there's a lot of elevation and where there are long sections of higher speed roads interrupted by very dense urban areas with some of the worse traffic congestion in the lower 48.
Speaking of data, you saying you got 100% of the diesel value back at trade in, is interesting, if humorous if you understand anything about how trade-ins work from a dealship perspective.
But it is also a data point and a valid one, as diesels hold their value much better over gasser. At least for now. If diesel costs keep increasing that is likely to change. This is something to take into consideration if someone is interested in buying a diesel. For me it's a non issue since I typically keep my vehicles beyond 10-15 years.
Speaking of deprecation...
I ended up getting my 7.3 for less than the typical gasser F350 goes for from the same trim level, age and mileage.
Hell I got it for less than the typical Taco prerunner goes for from the same age and same mileage. Despite the truck costing over twice as much over the Taco when new.
Granted mine was a pretty special deal. And it is how I justified getting a diesel after years of thinking, nope I don't need one, having dealt with them professionally for years. And my experience in the years after getting it have only strengthened my case that the diesel power plant is not everything it's cracked up to be, for the way I operate my own truck. My experience might help others in forming their opinion about the power plant. Just the same as your experience might do the same.
And yes my truck operates in what used to be called severe duty.
Heavy, slow, stop and go traffic while carrying a very heavy load until I get out of the city and then I spend as much time as I can in the mountains or in the forests which here in the west means dust.
My camper is on my truck 90% of when it rolls. And it will sit for a few weeks at a time, since it is not my daily.
These are all very hard operating conditions for a diesel.
Top of this forum is Hard-Side Truck Campers, that means in-the-truck payload is part and parcel of this discussion. I don't personally care a lick about towing, and it is likely I won't ever need to tow 10k pounds let alone 20k.
And I wouldn't tow much more than 2k behind a Subaru. My Outback didn't even have a hitch.
But bringing up ULEV & PZEV was not to compare a 1-Ton to them but to point out that while you can easily find emissions data for sedans but because 1-ton trucks fall into a different class the tailpipe emission data is harder to come by.
I care about driving as clean a truck as I can afford. And I am pointing it out that when comparing equivalent years and conditions a stock gasser is a cleaner choice vs a stock oil burner.
As for DEF costs, it adds to the total cost of ownership. And it's an increase in cost over the gasser and over older pre def engines. I have to look at everything when weighing the pros and cons of a truck. The cost, complexity and increased exposure to system malfunctioning of modern diesel emission equipment weigh into that calculation.
My data isn't bad, my data is one set, based on a lifetime of experience driving personally and professionally over a very broad selection of vehicles using diesels and gas engines for hauling loads in the western USA. Where it can very dry, where there's a lot of elevation and where there are long sections of higher speed roads interrupted by very dense urban areas with some of the worse traffic congestion in the lower 48.
Speaking of data, you saying you got 100% of the diesel value back at trade in, is interesting, if humorous if you understand anything about how trade-ins work from a dealship perspective.
But it is also a data point and a valid one, as diesels hold their value much better over gasser. At least for now. If diesel costs keep increasing that is likely to change. This is something to take into consideration if someone is interested in buying a diesel. For me it's a non issue since I typically keep my vehicles beyond 10-15 years.
Speaking of deprecation...
I ended up getting my 7.3 for less than the typical gasser F350 goes for from the same trim level, age and mileage.
Hell I got it for less than the typical Taco prerunner goes for from the same age and same mileage. Despite the truck costing over twice as much over the Taco when new.
Granted mine was a pretty special deal. And it is how I justified getting a diesel after years of thinking, nope I don't need one, having dealt with them professionally for years. And my experience in the years after getting it have only strengthened my case that the diesel power plant is not everything it's cracked up to be, for the way I operate my own truck. My experience might help others in forming their opinion about the power plant. Just the same as your experience might do the same.
deserteagle56
Adventurer
There's some models of slide-in campers that have a drop-down portion that goes right in back of the end of the truck bed and covers up the hole that you use to access the spare tire winch assembly. I made sure when I bought my camper that it DID NOT block that access port.
deserteagle56
Adventurer
You need to come out to Nevada in the spring right after the dirt roads are graded. They DO NOT rake the rocks they tore out of the ground off the road surface. I once had four flats in 130 miles of dirt road in my E-rated tires and let me tell you, rock breaks are hard to patch with plugs. Most people out here carry at least two spares.
I have zero interest in intentionally going some place that is likely to destroy my truck. You guys have fun out there.
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Buliwyf
Viking with a Hammer
1.) Range of my gas truck has never been an issue yet. Gas has been cheaper to own and travel with overall. From my point of view, fuel mileage is feel good BS. It has never had a significant effect on my travels, or travel budget. Neither good or bad. DRW and a large camper, go diesel for long trips. SRW and a little short bed camper under 2000#, go gas with the biggest gears offered. I suggest Bundutec Bunduvry and Capris campers. Both are short bed F250/350/3500 friendly.
2.) Dodge or Ford for a diesel DRW truck. Ford only for a gas SRW. Also consider the new gas Ford 7.3l for either DRW or SRW. Especially if your trips are shorter.
3.) The Rams ball joints are easy enough to change out. The Fords unit hub bearing assemblies life is dependent on the number of deep water crossings IME. I just got 200,000 miles out of a set. Advantage Ford, with it's Dana 60 front axle. The 17+ Fords should have the connector by the spare tire cleaned and dieelectric greased. Outside vendors have supplied a bunch of sketchy track bars and pitman arms for both brands. Not a big deal to t-shoot. You'll find similar issues with Wranglers. Read up on the usual fixes, each brands forum isn't shy about such. Expect to install quality aftermarket shocks ASAP.
I'd strongly recommend a lighter camper, 1/2 ton specific model, for a short bed F350 or Dodge 3500. Things get tippy fast off road, and it's often the fault of the overloaded tires and packing too much gear. Also consider an F550 with super singles and a box, if you can't escape the need for a heavy camper. They're tight, but all I need is a nice bed, AC, and a shower. I'm not doing gymnastics or yoga in my camper, I don't need 300 square feet to sleep or shower.
Also consider whether or not you can wheel a box stock DRW truck with just improved shocks and MT tires. Last year, all of my overlanding could have been completed by a box stock DRW. More comfortably with a front locker added. DRW's have a confidence hauling, that a SRW setup can't match. Unless you can skimp and watch every single pound with a lighter camper.
The new diesels have an asparagus pee smell if they idle in cold weather for long. If you have to idle in a snowy blizzard all night, while sleeping, you might notice. Might not be typical, could be mud on the DPF burning. But I've noticed it a few times, with multiple trucks.
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Buliwyf
Viking with a Hammer
As for the spare tire argument. I see that many of the lighter campers with a low tail, don't go as low as the rear bumper. Access to the spare jack is cake still:
And I'd leave those heavy camper jacks at home. Any decent crane can get your camper off and supply some simple cribbage, if you need the camper off for a transmission or engine replacement 2000 miles from home.
And I'd leave those heavy camper jacks at home. Any decent crane can get your camper off and supply some simple cribbage, if you need the camper off for a transmission or engine replacement 2000 miles from home.