Tundra vs F150

[bkg]

I didn’t realize that the efficiency of diesels was such a difficult concept for people to grasp. Yikes. Its okay to prefer gasoline. We enjoy inordinately low prices in America. Most other places its $7/gallon or more.

Diesels used to be significantly more efficient... The EPA has made sure that isn't the case.

Having said that, i'd MUCH rather tow with my F350 6.7 than my former 2015 CrewMax…. it's significantly less work in the ford.

 

[Dalko43]

Diesels used to be significantly more efficient... The EPA has made sure that isn't the case.

Having said that, i'd MUCH rather tow with my F350 6.7 than my former 2015 CrewMax…. it's significantly less work in the ford.

DPF and EGR haven't helped. Give it time though...the commercial operators will expect more efficiency gains in the years to come and OEM's will be incentivized to optimize the emissions and overall efficiency of these new clean engines.

Honestly, I see buses and trucks running around my area with emissions compliant systems...the DPF's and EGR's seem to be relatively reliable at this point. My biggest gripe is with the SCR (DEF system) and its potential for finicky problems. I've heard of some OEM's and designers experimenting with solid substrate SCR catalysts which might eliminate that problem.

We're only 10 years into this new regulatory environment. If diesel trucks will be around for another 40-50 years, which seems very likely at this point, OEM's will find ways to improve the technology. IMHO, the biggest factor holding back efficiency for the 3/4 ton diesels isn't so much the emissions control as it is this stupid HP/Torque war that the big 3 are engaged in. +400 HP and +1000lb-ft...why would anyone expect much more than mid teens from that kind of truck?

 

[battleaxe]

Well played but I have never understood why only the 4Runner and Tundra have this feature. Is a glass hatch (SUV) or tiny window (truck) some how superior? I walked passed a new Ranger today and it has the tiniest opening. I would be so distracted trying to throw my empty beer cans in the bed of the truck.

I thought I heard it was a patent thing?

Its my understanding that all of the new generation diesel powertrains from the big 3 are pretty good. I don't own any of them because i don’t have a use for a heavy duty pickup, yet. I cant comment on the dependability of Ford diesels besides my remark about personally requiring an extended 100k mile warranty for me to consider owning a Ford as a tow vehicle.

Once you remove the EGR, and throw in a chip to get it to run/shift properly (voiding the warranty), they're ok. (So like another 3-5k on top of your purchase price).

Except for the Cummins. Dodge are so out of touch with reality they put a 500ft-lb rated transmission behind a 700ft-lb engine, and then blame the consumer when they grenade. (I've witnessed this four times in the last 6 years).

It all comes down to this... If you need/want the diesel, buy the diesel. But don't delude yourself into thinking that you're somehow saving money in the long run. We live in a world of planned obsolescence, it's the heart of the capitalist machine.

 

[Dalko43]

Except for the Cummins. Dodge are so out of touch with reality they put a 500ft-lb rated transmission behind a 700ft-lb engine, and then blame the consumer when they grenade. (I've witnessed this four times in the last 6 years).

It all comes down to this... If you need/want the diesel, buy the diesel. But don't delude yourself into thinking that you're somehow saving money in the long run. We live in a world of planned obsolescence, it's the heart of the capitalist machine.

Agree with the dodge transmission issues. The Aisin seems well suited to the 6.7l...I still don't have complete faith in the OEM transmission, and Dodge doesn't seem to care too much about revising it.

Also agree with the comments on saving money. Hot-shotters and long haul drivers probably stand the best chance of actually realizing a net savings from operating a diesel in the long run. If you're daily driving for a few years and then trading in for something else, you're probably not going to save much, if at all, by going with a diesel.

But by the same token, you're certainly not going to brake the bank by owning a diesel...despite all the diesel horror stories from the experts on here and other forums. Bottom line, if you plan to own/operate a 3/4 or 1/2 ton truck (diesel or gasoline), plan to spend a fair bit of money. They both have their own inherent costs to deal with.

 

[Deleted member 9101]

It all comes down to this... If you need/want the diesel, buy the diesel. But don't delude yourself into thinking that you're somehow saving money in the long run. We live in a world of planned obsolescence, it's the heart of the capitalist machine.

 

[nickw]

You are correct. Although you may have missed my point about the price similarity between a new, well optioned F150 gasser & lightly used Diesels.

If you need to change the narrative and add “$8-9k” to initial cost of diesel in order to validate your absolute facts and figures, well i can’t contest that. Its your reality, who am I to convince you otherwise?

I’ve never known a diesel truck owner with regrets. Many people spend nearly $60k on a 1/2 ton gasser, then loose their shirt on a trade when they realize they want/need a bigger truck to tow that boat or RV they want - regardless of what a Ford’s 1/2 Ton tow & payload numbers suggest.




The moral of that story is that their diesel was efficient enough to offer range that gasoline could not match. They would not physically be able to carry enough gas on their Troop Carrier to achieve that range because of payload and space constraints. They didn’t carry jerry cans, because they had two large tanks.

Technically neither gas nor diesel is required for international travel... You can travel on a bicycle dude. An internal combustion engine would improve long distance travel efficiency in some regards, right? Okay, now enter diesel fuel, which is more efficient in some regards than gasoline, right?

I didn’t realize that the efficiency of diesels was such a difficult concept for people to grasp. Yikes. Its okay to prefer gasoline. We enjoy inordinately low prices in America. Most other places its $7/gallon or more.

I sure wouldn’t complain if Toyota brought over their twin turbo V8 diesel and put into the new Tundra. Ford Rapter killer maybe? ??

Cool story....so what? That Gas couldn't go 1600 miles? Bragging rights? The math is easy for anybody here to do, MPG X Gallons = Range. We know how it works.

I couldn't care less about Toyota V8 diesel.....why is it any better than what we have? It's certainly no performance engine with less than 300 hp. The Raptors engine is significantly more powerful and much lighter.

 

[nickw]

DPF and EGR haven't helped. Give it time though...the commercial operators will expect more efficiency gains in the years to come and OEM's will be incentivized to optimize the emissions and overall efficiency of these new clean engines.

Honestly, I see buses and trucks running around my area with emissions compliant systems...the DPF's and EGR's seem to be relatively reliable at this point. My biggest gripe is with the SCR (DEF system) and its potential for finicky problems. I've heard of some OEM's and designers experimenting with solid substrate SCR catalysts which might eliminate that problem.

We're only 10 years into this new regulatory environment. If diesel trucks will be around for another 40-50 years, which seems very likely at this point, OEM's will find ways to improve the technology. IMHO, the biggest factor holding back efficiency for the 3/4 ton diesels isn't so much the emissions control as it is this stupid HP/Torque war that the big 3 are engaged in. +400 HP and +1000lb-ft...why would anyone expect much more than mid teens from that kind of truck?

That is assuming the emissions and efficiency standards stay static, they are getting tighter and more difficult every year at a faster pace than the OEMs can keep up with.

Just because an engine has big power numbers doesn't mean it can't be efficient. For most diesels pickups, Fuel used (mpg) = power required, 200hp is 200hp regardless of if your engine is capable of 500 or 1000. Current engines have a lot in reserve and are sized so they can make reasonably reliable power at the higher HP ratings when needed. What we really need are full size pickups with 4-5L diesels. A new Duramax (6.6L) vs an old GM diesel (6.5L) both get about the same MPG, the DMax has 2x the power.

I (personally) think this is a significant reason Toyota has stayed FAR away from the US market w/diesels....they'd have to compromise their diesel reliability and reputation dealing with all mandated emissions stuff.

 

[battleaxe]

Cool story....so what? That Gas couldn't go 1600 miles? Bragging rights? The math is easy for anybody here to do, MPG X Gallons = Range. We know how it works.

I couldn't care less about Toyota V8 diesel.....why is it any better than what we have? It's certainly no performance engine with less than 300 hp. The Raptors engine is significantly more powerful and much lighter.

Yeah I dunno how that comparison came about as a Raptor killer either... Super fuel economy and reliability =/= Raptor....

 

[Deleted member 9101]

I (personally) think this is a significant reason Toyota has stayed FAR away from the US market w/diesels....they'd have to compromise their diesel reliability and reputation dealing with all mandated emissions stuff.

Probably.... And the fact that they would never sell enough it make it profitable.

 

[nickw]

Probably.... And the fact that they would never sell enough it make it profitable.

I always felt like there was a market for it personally, to your point though, it doesn't mean it makes financial sense when you factor in the added emissions stuff, testing, marketing, etc. I guess it comes down to how much more would people be willing to pay.

People b&$*% and moan about no diesel LC, but VERY FEW people would put their money where their mouth is, pony up to the table and drop the $60k+ for a midsize utilitarian work truck/SUV.

I got the sense we'd never see a diesel pickup when Toyota starting pushing the hybrids....that seemed to be their long game.

 

[Deleted member 9101]

I always felt like there was a market for it personally, to your point though, it doesn't mean it makes financial sense when you factor in the added emissions stuff, testing, marketing, etc. I guess it comes down to how much more would people be willing to pay.

People b&$*% and moan about no diesel LC, but VERY FEW people would put their money where their mouth is, pony up to the table and drop the $60k+ for a midsize utilitarian work truck/SUV.

I got the sense we'd never see a diesel pickup when Toyota starting pushing the hybrids....that seemed to be their long game.

Dude... I'm kind of excited for a hybrid truck that's worth a sh¡t. Diesel is on it's was out for non commercial vehicles around the world. With the increased power, longevity, and reliability of gas engines and the hoops that diesels have to jump through to meet emissions standards... they are probably near the end of their usefullness for most consumers.

Also, when Ford and GM developed their new 10 speed, they spent a combined billion dollars and then Ford took it a step further and developed a heavy duty version for their larger trucks. Toyota would never be able to turn a profit due to the massive development cost since they would be starting from scratch. Trying to compete with the "big 3" in an area that they have decades of experience would be far to risky for Toyota. Hell, they had to partner with BMW and Subaru just to be able to make something that resembles a sports car... The odds of them making a diesel truck for the US market are nill...lol.

You are correct though... People complain about vehicles that they will neber be able to afford....haha.

 

[Bayou Boy]

I do, as do many others... You'd have to have a serious mental deficiency to not care about the operating cost of a vehicle. But hey.... If you want to burn extra money so you can get to the top of the hill first... Be my guest.

The only people I see around here with mental deficiencies are those judging other people's finances on a forum. How lame. You have no idea if my truck cost me double my annual salary or if it's a rounding error. Everyone is here because of their TOYS. Remember that before you project your poor people thinking on others.

 

[Bayou Boy]

You are correct though... People complain about vehicles that they will neber be able to afford....haha.

Bingo. Lots of guys complaining about the costs of brand new $70k trucks with a $5k junker in their signature.

 

[Deleted member 9101]

The only people I see around here with mental deficiencies are those judging other people's finances on a forum. How lame. You have no idea if my truck cost me double my annual salary or if it's a rounding error. Everyone is here because of their TOYS. Remember that before you project your poor people thinking on others.

I didn't judge anyone's finances. I simply stated facts to dispell a widespread fallacy on this forum.

 

[bkg]

I didn't judge anyone's finances. I simply stated facts to dispell a widespread fallacy on this forum.

Again... a forum dedicated to spending 10’s of thousands modifying vehicles is probably not the place to attempt to project a fallacy.