Using a flooded starter battery for dual battery install and some deep cycling

[billiebob]

"When a passenger car battery is used in a commercial application truck over one ton, marine service, recreational vehicle, etc. and is defective in material or workmanship

that is the issue, defective in material or workmanship.....
altho I am a bit incredulous about the accuracy of your "quote".
and I never knew AAA sold batteries, cool if they do but I thought AAA was only about service.

Lots to consider here, altho I have never needed to collect on a battery warranty, I average 10 years before replacing one, but I now know why they are so expensive if guys are getting new batteries under warranty every 20 months.

 

[john61ct]

Yes that IMO also is scamming the vendor,

so many "vanlifers" do so with Sam's, Cosco, Walmart

until they get blacklisted

 

[OllieChristopher]

Take a moment and see if you can't get a Grp 31 in one of the trays (or both of them!). A Grp 78 battery is only good for 60-70Ah (at least it isn't an Optima at a paltry ~50 ). A single 78 battery is only good for ~30Ah...you'll drive a starter batt into the ground pretty quick. Grp 31 is good for 110Ah or so.

One other thing...get a solenoid (nothing fancy) to manually disconnect / disable it when you turn the truck off (or starting).

Unfortunately the group 31 just will not fit with factory trays. The group 78 is tight as it is with hardly any play. That being said I did measure and could fabricate some trays/hold down straps and maybe stuff them in. I figure to do the simple factory option first and see how that works out.

Yes I already have that setup (Blue Seas 7622) . I realize there are a bunch of different configurations to be had. This is what I chose. I did a lot of research and phone calls before choosing this. By biggest sway was my gearhead uncle. He recommended to use only marine or aircraft relays and switches for under the hood. I simply cannot afford aircraft hardware so marine was the next best choice. You can see it here:

Dual battery install 05 GMC Sierra with pics

Hi guys I'm new here. Thought I would share some pictures and my procedures for a dual battery install. This is model specific but can cross over to many other makes and models. First a little background. I have been a lurker here for many years. I'm getting to a point in my life to do some...

expeditionportal.com

I'm actually very excited to get this done in the next few weeks. I appreciate your purchasing input on those batteries. I am going to call some of my local Sams Clubs and check stock. I think I can even get a small core charge on my existing battery. I'm still blown away how cheap those AGM batteries are!! 140 bucks for the 34/78 and 160.00 for the 78. When I got a battery for my wife's car a few months back, Pep Boys had the Champion AGM for 150.00 with 4 year replacement warranty. That sale is long gone and now they are north of 200.00.

I admit I got caught up on getting the very best battery with very best warranty. The math did not add up. And the reality is I will not ever cycle these batteries down like a full time "off grid" vehicle will.

Wrong, only if it was used as intended. Otherwise it is scam. And you will need to be inventive to get a new battery under warranty,,, hence, scam

that is the issue, defective in material or workmanship.....
altho I am a bit incredulous about the accuracy of your "quote".

Yes that IMO also is scamming the vendor,

so many "vanlifers" do so with Sam's, Cosco, Walmart

until they get blacklisted

Not to worry guys/gals. I will not get caught up in debating or arguing your speculation, innuendos, or lack of comprehension skills. I have clearly stated what I'm using my batteries for. If in your mind you cannot understand, are incredulous, or come to your own conclusion that is fine by me.

Flooding this thread with your unfounded and negative statements serves no purpose to the decorum of this forum. I see those kind of posts as nothing but trolling and will not respond to them after this post.

If you have something positive or helpful then I will continue the discussion in that direction. Otherwise I will allow you to have the last words or continue with your troll like behavior.

 

[vtsoundman]

Well I hope the AGM works out for you...take care of them from time to time by putting them on a charger (all LA, regardless of type benefit from this BTW). I usually run a charger if any of my vehicles sit for more than a couple of weeks ... any LA charged solely by alternator sees an overnight charger about 1x month. No alternator does a good enough job...

Since I've been doing this for the last 10yrs or so, I haven't had a battery " die before its time" - I think I've gotten about 2-3 yrs more outta of them before they really start to show their age.

Lots of little energy vampires (wife's mini has a note in the manual, so does my sprinter...charge it or disconnect if it sits for more than 3 weeks)

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[OllieChristopher]

No alternator does a good enough job...

How so very true! Mine will be great for everyday driving but when parked I was looking for something else to keep the batteries charged. I upgraded the alternator for the simple reason that OEM GM alternators are a weak link. At least that has been my experience over the years.


My truck lives on a cheap "solar tender" whenever it's parked more than a few days. I'm on the injured list so not much driving for the next year or so. I plan on getting a little 30-50 watt panel and hooking it up to the Victron when at home. Then a bigger 100 - 200 watt suitcase when camping.

 

[OllieChristopher]

So I got the battery situation worked out and made my decision. I ended up getting 2 Deka Start/Deep Cycle batteries. Just under 160 bucks each shipped direct from manufacturer. Made in USA by well known East Penn Mfg. They have been around since 1946 and have a solid reputation in the battery industry.

I wanted to go with Northstar. But the reality is they are no better made than what I got. After endless research I have found you are only paying for the name. With proper care I have every reason to believe a cheap AGM is going to be every bit as good and last as long if not longer than the high dollar ones.

The only advantage of Northstar vs Deka is 9 more amp hrs and 105 more CCA. That is not enough to justify double the price for a battery that is not going to last any longer.

I want to thank vtsoundman for turning me on to these batteries. I attempted to get them at Sams Club but they were all out of stock locally and no longer have guest memberships. FWIW, I believe Deka start/deep cycle is the same battery as the Duracell at Sams Club.

I thought long and hard going with a just another flooded start battery. In the end the bargain on a set of USA made high quality AGM's was hard to pass up.

I recommend anyone in the market for batteries to do your research. You are going to find out a lot of these high end/high price batteries are no better in build quality or performance as the cheap ones.

 

[vtsoundman]

Post a link to the batts?

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[OllieChristopher]

Here you go Sir:

Intimidator 9A78DT Group Size 34/78 AGM Battery

Intimidator 9A78DT Battery by East Penn / Deka. The Intimidator 9A78DT is a high performance Group Size 34/78 AGM battery designed for extreme starting and cycling applications.

www.remybattery.com

East Penn newsletters for both the Deka and Duracell:

East Penn Reveals the Deka Intimidator (TM) - East Penn Manufacturing

East Penn announces the Deka Intimidator (TM), a new high-powered non-spillable Group 34/78 sealed AGM battery. The Deka Intimidator’s dual purpose capabilities delivers quick starts and plenty of competition-quality accessory power for stereo systems, hydraulic lifts, winches, on-board...

www.eastpennmanufacturing.com

East Penn Releases New Duracell Automotive Batteries - East Penn Manufacturing

East Penn Manufacturing has signed an exclusive agreement with Duracell (part of the Procter & Gamble Company [NYSE:PG]) to release batteries branded under the Duracell name. East Penn’s over 60-year tradition of producing the world’s highest quality lead-acid batteries is...Continue reading

www.eastpennmanufacturing.com

I very much appreciate you turning me on to these batteries. I'm almost positive these are the same ones that Sams Club sells under the name Duracell. I was really impressed that both batteries were 12.77 volts right off the Fed Ex truck. My previous AAA flooded batteries including the Champion AMG from Pep Boys have always tested at around 12.2 - 12.6 when I purchased them.

Right now I have both my batteries on my trickle maintenance charger. When I hooked them up the charger read 60%. I'll check this morning and report back what the voltage is.

I should be finished with my dual battery project today or tomorrow. I might make a YouTube video of it and post it on my thread.

BTW I never did catch your name. I'm Chris.

 

[Joe917]

Any battery that is advertised as a "starter/deep cycle" is not a true quality deep cycle. It is marketing BS.
The difference between starters and deep cycle is the thickness of the plates, they can't be both thick and thin at the same time!

 

[OllieChristopher]

Any battery that is advertised as a "starter/deep cycle" is not a true quality deep cycle. It is marketing BS.
The difference between starters and deep cycle is the thickness of the plates, they can't be both thick and thin at the same time!

Well Joe I will have to respectfully disagree with you. This is a true quality start/deep cycle battery. There is no marketing ploy whatsoever. It is simply a rebranded AGM battery manufactured by Penn Mfg. They have been making batteries in the USA for over 70 years with a proven track record for reliability.

Marketing aside, AGM batteries are deep cycle made with thicker plates. Consequently they can also be used as a starter battery . Absorbed glass mat batteries by design sandwich the lead plate which is always thicker in a AGM design. I knew that going into this purchase.

This battery is just as good as any other deep cycle AGM for a daily driver such as mine.

 

[john61ct]

East Penn newsletters for both the Deka and Duracell

I'm almost positive these are the same ones that Sams Club sells under the name Duracell

Yes Duracell brand is owned by EPM for this niche, just relabeled same exact as Deka units.

But only the FLA 6V are suitable for true deep cycling usage.

The best battery value by far on the planet is Duracell (actually Deka/East Penn) FLA deep cycle golf cart batteries, 2x6V, around $200 per 200+AH @12V pair from BatteriesPlus or Sam's Club. NAPA relabels it here: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NBP8144 Deka self-labeled also sold at Lowes.

IMO on par with Trojan.

 

[john61ct]

The idea of "dual use" batteries (Starter + deep cycling in one) is most often a scam, just not up to the deep cycling part.

But any deep cycling bank large enough can function as a good Starter batt, really is a trivial load, no need to even see a CCA rating, that is usually a red flag.

One notable exception is Odyssey's PC-2150

G31 100Ah

Head and shoulders above any AGM by EPM/Deka or Trojan.

And again, only use AGM if it is truly required

much poorer value, shorter lifespan than FLA and less robust, finicky to care for.

 

[vtsoundman]

The best battery value by far on the planet is Duracell (actually Deka/East Penn) FLA deep cycle golf cart batteries, 2x6V, around $200 per 200+AH @12V pair from BatteriesPlus or Sam's Club. NAPA relabels it here: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NBP8144 Deka self-labeled also sold at Lowes.

IMO on par with Trojan.

And so $/lb of steel for a 50 gallon drum is far cheaper than a typical truck fuel tank...but let's be real.

Only relavent (1) have the space/desire/need to carry that much lead (2) want to deal with the acid leaks/spills/corrosion that inevitably happens with FLA (3) want to spend $400 on batteries (4) can't handle the relatively benign reqs of modern AGMs...

The idea of "dual use" batteries (Starter + deep cycling in one) is most often a scam, just not up to the deep cycling part.

But any deep cycling bank large enough can function as a good Starter batt, really is a trivial load, no need to even see a CCA rating, that is usually a red flag.

One notable exception is Odyssey's PC-2150

G31 100Ah

Head and shoulders above any AGM by EPM/Deka or Trojan.

And again, only use AGM if it is truly required

much poorer value, shorter lifespan than FLA and less robust, finicky to care for.

Let's see...
PC-2150 100Ah is a $400 battery...
$4/Ah...

The 105Ah Sam Club battery is $179...
$1.70/Ah...

I've got about four years on my cheap Sam's Club battery and I've been beating the crap out of it... I'll load test it later this spring and see where the usable hours are, but my sense is that I'm somewhere around 80%. Many of the other applications where I spec'd this battery, see about 4-5 yrs of useful life...so I'm on track.

I can replace the cheaper Sam's Club battery 2x and still be ahead before approach the price of an Odyssey...

Will an PC2150 last more than 8 yrs and truly have 2x the cycle life (i.e., have useful capacity above 80%)...nope.

Is it an outstanding battery? You betcha it is... But it's not without its issues.

Is it a good idea to run a battery that's 8 years old? Nope.

The PC2150 is certainly far more finicky than your garden variety AGM. Per the manual, it needs 14.7 to 15 volts. It wants a 0.4 C charging rate on a regular basis. That sort of voltage is out of the range of the majority of alternators. That sort of C rate and voltage range also requires an expensive charger...

A combo deep cycle/starter batteries are like an all season tires vs a snow or mud tire... Do most people need the CCA rating of a starter battery? Nope. Not everyone is starting a big old diesel... Do most people truly deep cycle their batteries? Nope. These batts are good at a lot of things just not great at any one thing... Do they get the job done in a perfectly satisfactory/good manner? Absolutely.

It's all about compromises and not absolutes.

We also need to look at the reality of lead acid costs versus lithium costs... A decent 100Ah LiFePo is available for around $525 to the General public... (I'm not talking about the marketing brand of battleborn ... They make a nice product and they make a very nice profit).

Last year, you'd be hard-pressed to find a 100Ah lithium less than $700 or $800. Industrial systems, the dollar per amp hour is far far less...

Why in the hell would anybody buy two of the Odysseys for a deep cycle/Overlander/marine use with a total usable amp hour rating of around 100 - 110Ah for over $800 when you can get a decent quality lithium pack for about $525 and get around 85-90Ah of usable capacity... And let's not forget, the lithiums will absolutely trounce any lead acid for cycle and calendar life. And be less than a third the weight and half the space?

The days of these super expensive lead acid batteries is quickly coming to an end... There will always be niche applications, but not for typical use...


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