Wanted: Vehicle for boondocking in extreme cold

[Exponewbie]

I am looking for a vehicle for boondocking in the Canadian arctic/subarctic for one month, where the temperature will often be around -40 F. Here are the basic requirements:

• Vehicle can maintain the interior temperature 24/7 at 55 F or warmer.
• Supports 1-2 people inside.
• Engine and other systems will start and work in the extreme cold. Unless vehicle will run continually for a month, it needs to be able to start in the extreme cold after it has been shutdown for some period.
• In the ideal world, the vehicle will have running water during this period. Otherwise, if this isn't possible, bottled water will suffice.
• Vehicle can be driven on and off-road over long distances. That is, it's durable, has sufficient ground clearance, rugged suspension, etc.
• Vehicle can be used.
• Price - Less than USD $100k.

Related information:

• The vehicle does not need TV.
• Vehicle will be used 24/7 during this period.
• No gas station or mechanic will be within 100 miles.

Here are some crazy ideas I have to help:

• Vehicle might tow a small fuel trailer to serve as an auxiliary fuel tank. This could then be used to help run a heater. However, the tuel trailer would need to be useable in the extreme cold. And, it shouldn't require a driver's license that is different than what is needed for the main vehicle.
• Vehicle could have a small pellet stove to help heat it. It would then need to have significant storage space for enough bags of wood pellets to keep it running for a month. The pellet stove would also need a source of electricity to run its motors.
• If there isn't sufficient sun for solar, vehicle could generate some power using 1-2 small wind turbines, such as the Airdolphin Mark Zero Off Grid Small Wind Turbine 24V.

 

[Dread Pirate Sushi]

Hi,

That's a fairly tall order for a winter vehicle for the north. Where is it you plan to go and why the winter?

You might want to look into a BV-206 to convert. It's an articulated tracked vehicle made for the types of conditions you are expecting. It will also give you two smaller spaces to heat vs one large open area. Here's a link to one for sale in Edmonton AB (https://www.kijiji.ca/v-heavy-trucks/edmonton/hagglund-bv-206/1480705745?undefined).

You will use a lot of fuel keeping the interior at 55F; you may want to consider using clothing to increase your comfort levels vice keeping the heat on blast. If you have the time I would recommend getting up there early to acclimate; you'll be surprised how the body can get used to very cool temps. I spent considerable time back in the 90's in the Canadian prairies during winter on exercise (camping with less fun) with the Canadian military. Our vehicles were open to the elements most of the time (-25C and below) and we primarly slept in 5-10 man tents with stove and lantern watch. In the tents it was rarely above 5C but we became acclimatized to living and working in those conditions.

Navigation is also going to be a complex problem the further north you go. GPS starts getting pretty sketchy north of 55 and GLONASS north of 65 NLat due to the orbits of the satellites. You will also have to deal with GPS signal loss due to ionospheric interference (the aurora Borealis is beautiful to look at but it will mess with your GPS). You will have to be able to navigate in complete darkness and I do not know if there are any radio nav beacons for overland navigation up there.

Sushi

PS - a fuel trailer is not a bad idea as you will have to start your rig several times a day for 30-60 mins to keep the batteries charged and fluids moving.

 

[luthj]

If I was building a vehicle like this here would be my approach.

Start with a winter specific/modified chassis. Whatever arctic operators use. Gasoline powerplant if possible. Then put a total composites or similar box on. With the insulation value, you should be able to keep your heating needs slightly more reasonable. Put all the plumbing inside the heated envolope, and design around preventing condensation and keeping the mechanical and water areas warm. Use a heater that accepts gasoline or kerosene as fuel. Add a lithium battery pack which will meet your needs. For power in teh dark months, your only option is a generator. Pick one and combine with a high rate charger to recover your power needs at nearly fully generator load. Run the gen for an hour or two a day to recover your power needs. A large aux fuel tank with the gen and heater pulling from it will do the job. You will probably need to plan around 2-3 gallons per day of fuel for heating and power needs. You will still have to deal with water waste. A composting toilet may help. Finding places to dump the gray tank should be doable in the remote arctic. Finding places to pump water may be harder.

You will find no common camper setups can handle this type of long term cold weather operation. There are some truck bed campers build for cold weather, but fuel capacity, condensation etc can be real issues.

Another approach is to do a custom trailer. A total composites box on a flat trailer would work. Modifying an existing trailer with extreme insulation, removing windows (double pane for the remaining), moving the water and waste systems inside, etc, could do the trick.

 

[Joe917]

Sounds like you are describing my truck.
It is for sale, however we are living in it while we renovate our new home. Ottawa can get very cold, no issues with that.
Composite insulated camper box.
750 liter water capacity all inside the heated envelope.
Natures Head composting toilet
Webasto Thermotop C coolant heater. Heats camper box and preheats engine for cold starts(only when required). Engine heats camper box when running.
450 liter diesel tank, 2000 km range
4 kW generator with 90 liter gasoline tank.
Flooded Rolls Surette lead acid house batteries (less than 2 yrs old) room inside heated envelope for Lithium batteries if you wanted to switch.
full time 4X4 with front central and rear lockers, Mercedes 917 AF.
Lots more...

Mercedes-Benz 917 AF Renovation.

Hi Simon. You are right. We are are getting stir crazy now and are keen to get back to Peru. I think it must of been Rick Stein that put that thought in my head now you have reminded me. Neil

www.expeditionportal.com

the wandering heffalump

In which Joe and Stacey go exploring

thewanderingheffalump.wordpress.com

 

[skiventure]

Real easy to keep the interior warm if you insulate well, eliminate thermal bridges, and have effective heat. Last winter in my van I had 90f feet when it was -10f outside thanks to my hydronic radiant floor heating system and effective thermal break/insulation.

 

[CampStewart]

They make dedicated pellet stoves small enough to be used in vehicles?

 

[adam88]

If I was building a vehicle like this here would be my approach.

Start with a winter specific/modified chassis. Whatever arctic operators use. Gasoline powerplant if possible. Then put a total composites or similar box on. With the insulation value, you should be able to keep your heating needs slightly more reasonable. Put all the plumbing inside the heated envolope, and design around preventing condensation and keeping the mechanical and water areas warm. Use a heater that accepts gasoline or kerosene as fuel. Add a lithium battery pack which will meet your needs. For power in teh dark months, your only option is a generator. Pick one and combine with a high rate charger to recover your power needs at nearly fully generator load. Run the gen for an hour or two a day to recover your power needs. A large aux fuel tank with the gen and heater pulling from it will do the job. You will probably need to plan around 2-3 gallons per day of fuel for heating and power needs. You will still have to deal with water waste. A composting toilet may help. Finding places to dump the gray tank should be doable in the remote arctic. Finding places to pump water may be harder.

You will find no common camper setups can handle this type of long term cold weather operation. There are some truck bed campers build for cold weather, but fuel capacity, condensation etc can be real issues.

Another approach is to do a custom trailer. A total composites box on a flat trailer would work. Modifying an existing trailer with extreme insulation, removing windows (double pane for the remaining), moving the water and waste systems inside, etc, could do the trick.

Good advice. One thing I would say, however, is that no generator will be needed because they will be running the vehicle 24/7 and the alternator will recharge the batteries as needed. In -40 you need to run the vehicle 24/7 or else everything gums up and breaks. So no worries about power. The real concern will be fuel. They will need to figure out a way to carry a very large amount of gasoline with them and that can be dangerous because gasoline is so flammable, but as mentioned diesel would not be ideal for this.

My own thoughts....

I concur 100% with a total composites type box. Keep things simple.... buy a flatbed with a 12 foot flatbed. Probably an F550 is a good one. Then buy a 12 foot composites box. Put everything inside of the box. I would use a diesel heater with a big tank inside the camper (safer and lasts forever). Leave the interior heater running 24/7. Throw some simple furniture in it like a bed with frame, some cabinets, a toilet if desired. Done. Keep it as simple as possible. Run all water lines inside exposed to the interior (dont embed them in the walls) for easy access. Same with electrical. All electric and water lines should be 100% accessible. NOTHING goes outside of the composite camper... no undermount batteries or anything.

 

[adam88]

One other alternative to above would be, since you are running the engine 24/7, a hydronic heater would be very efficient. It would use the coolant from the engine of the vehicle to heat the camper. Since you will be running it 24/7 you get "free" heat. All you would need to do then is fill up the gasoline tank and voila.

 

[luthj]

Its not required to keep the engine idling. A hydronic heater will warm the engine up sufficiently for an easy start in about an hour.

 

[adam88]

Its not required to keep the engine idling. A hydronic heater will warm the engine up sufficiently for an easy start in about an hour.

The engine isn't the concern but I would think most of the other moving parts. I remember when Turtle went across Siberia, they tried to just keep the coolant warm with a generator, but when it dropped too low their power steering started leaking fluid because it got too cold. So they ended up leaving their vehicle idling 24/7.

And why not? A gasoline engine is CHEAP. Everyone is so afraid to leave an engine idling but that's the best way to do it in extreme cold. There's a reason why all the oil rig guys just leave the trucks running 24/7 because it is tried and true. Just need to make sure you change the oil based on hours, not kms.

 

[Todd n Natalie]

The engine isn't the concern but I would think most of the other moving parts. I remember when Turtle went across Siberia, they tried to just keep the coolant warm with a generator, but when it dropped too low their power steering started leaking fluid because it got too cold. So they ended up leaving their vehicle idling 24/7.

And why not? A gasoline engine is CHEAP. Everyone is so afraid to leave an engine idling but that's the best way to do it in extreme cold. There's a reason why all the oil rig guys just leave the trucks running 24/7 because it is tried and true. Just need to make sure you change the oil based on hours, not kms.

Yup, that's why up here when looking at used diesels, you really should check the hour meter....

 

[adam88]

Yup, that's why up here when looking at used diesels, you really should check the hour meter....

Yep. All of the oil rig guys lease them for 1 year. Typically put around 40,000 to 50,000kms on them and the trucks basically run for 1 year solid. It's not uncommon to see same model year trucks with 5000+ engine hours on them. Some of the dealerships in Calgary specialize in this. They don't disclose the hours voluntarily you have to check it yourself or ask.

 

[Todd n Natalie]

Yep. All of the oil rig guys lease them for 1 year. Typically put around 40,000 to 50,000kms on them and the trucks basically run for 1 year solid. It's not uncommon to see same model year trucks with 5000+ engine hours on them. Some of the dealerships in Calgary specialize in this. They don't disclose the hours voluntarily you have to check it yourself or ask.

Oh really? I never heard of that. Good to know. I'm thinking if you see a positive air shutoff switch in a diesel, probably a good indication you should check the hours. But, maybe check hours regardless....

 

[TheNatural]

There have been some great points about heating and building a properly insulated camper box.. but not nearly enough information about what the vehicle is going to do in the arctic. Are we talking about something that is going to be parked at a mine site for a month, or are you breaking trail all the way to 1996 magnetic north? Perhaps you'll be in the NWT and Yukon where there are maintained highways you'll be exploring? I know you stated a mix of on and off road over long distances, but that means drastically different things to different people so it's tough to know what you'll need.

I can second what has been said about the diesel pickups used in the energy sector... very common to leave them running a few months at a time (the winter months of course). We know there are solutions to keep things warm that are more efficient on consumables and better for the longevity of the vehicles engine, but because most are leases there is less willingness to invest in modifications and less focus on vehicle longevity.

I live very close to the BC/Yukon boarder and it's -30C as I write this (on my lunch break near the warmest part of the day). From my experience, what your build will need to focus on will largely depend on use case. The extremes and mixture of on or off road will play a huge roll in what ground pressure you are after (small tires/big tires/tracks), driveline choices, the allowable weight and center of gravity (which impacts size and comfort of vehicle, capacity to haul extra fuel), etc.

When I think about building a vehicle to use for independent travel in the arctic for a month I jump to keeping ground pressure low for floatation on deep snow and not breaking through sea ice. What I have in my head for that would handle poorly on the highway and forgo a lot of luxuries for weight savings. Someone that wanted to drive around the northern highways would hate it.

 

[Dirt Rider]

An Espar heater will keep the engine and the rest warm, without idle. Also it can run off the same diesel fuel tank, as well as keep the house area warm.