What does "Light Weight" mean?/

[downhill]

I understand that every man's idea of light weight is different. It is certainly true that the words Ultra-light and Lightweight have been so adulterated by camper manufactures as to be meaningless. There are however some hard lines in the sand that don't line up. There is a reason that so many overland type vehicles are based on large commercial truck chassis, and even those vehicles suffer fatigue failures. They look pretty awesome cruising down the highway, or rolling through a grassy savanna, or parked at an expo. Having explored back country all over North America, there are many many places that these large vehicles simply cannot get. Smaller vehicles afford far greater freedom to see the extraordinary places that are seldom seen. Staying light and compact is the key to getting to these places. Modern materials do make it possible to build campers that do not tax the GVWR of the host truck. I'm talking about something capable of real "expeditionary" use, not just "camping". It is just not being done. Modern trucks have been so stripped to achieve EPA mandates, that much of the allowed payload gets eaten back up just equipping the truck with minimal features, like bumpers. By the time your truck is trail prepped, what is left for the camper? The payload does not come after all that stuff, it includes it. The payload includes the weight of everything, including people.

I broached the subject here because this is an "expeditionary" forum. It's not about giving up every comfort. That is just something the manufacturers want you to believe. I think it is fair to say that "expeditionary" means at least that the expedition is the focus, rather than complete comfort. Shackleton, Perry, Lewis , and Clark understood that sometimes the most life changing journeys are not always steeped in comfort. That spirit does still exist in many of us. The fortunate thing for us is that we have the means now to explore in far greater comfort, if we just use the capabilities we have. It is clear that the situation is recognized by some manufacturers, and a segment of the market is moving that way.

Decades ago I was at the fore-front of the ultralight backpacking movement. It was the same situation. A good portion of my gear was homemade, because the manufacturers were way behind the trend. I've carried packs as heavy as 70 pounds in the old days, until I got fed up. My light pack, tent, stove, and water purifier where all handmade, either by me or by other like minded enthusiasts. My light stuff worked great, and it did keep me comfortable, but it did not break my back. It allowed me much deeper penetration into the wild places. Now I can walk in to a mountain shop and buy a great tent or pack. I have many to choose from. My 5 day back country pack today weighs under 20 pounds. I'm hoping that day will come with truck campers.

 

[rruff]

Modern materials do make it possible to build campers that do not tax the GVWR of the host truck. I'm talking about something capable of real "expeditionary" use, not just "camping". It is just not being done. Modern trucks have been so stripped to achieve EPA mandates, that much of the allowed payload gets eaten back up just equipping the truck with minimal features, like bumpers.

Modern trucks aren't small, and certainly aren't "stripped". I still have a '86 Toyota truck (2wd, extended cab). Contrast its specs with the 2016 Tundra I own:

Curb weight: 2700lb vs 5700lb
Power: 105hp vs 385hp
GVWR: 4400lb vs 7200lb
Payload: 1700lb vs 1500lb

Granted this is 2wd vs 4wd, you can buy trucks a little smaller than the Tundra these days, but not a lot smaller. Even the 4wd Tacoma weighs ~4500lb and has a worse payload. There is nothing remotely similar to an older Toyota truck on the market today.

It certainly isn't fuel efficiency requirements causing the heavy weight and weak payload. I frankly don't know what it is other than market demand, ie the more affluent who are the primary buyers of new trucks want luxury (ie size and weight) and don't give a damn about payload. And if they do care about payload, they can buy a 3/4 or 1 ton truck.

Campers cater to an even more affluent market. Comfort and luxury first. But it is much easier to find a light, cheap, and offroad capable camper than it is to find a vehicle with similar attributes. You can also build your own camper easily, but not the vehicle! The best campers that exist are made out of fiberglass and foam composite or similar construction. You won't be cutting weight from the shell without sacrificing durability.

Backpacking is not similar since the added weight isn't something you have to carry on your back. Height and width might limit where you can go, but weight not so much. And if you really want to get into the back country, you have to hike regardless. Can't even ride a bicycle.

 

[Clutch]

I'm hoping that day will come with truck campers.

Here ya go...small, light weight....

Yes, that is a Four Wheel Camper on a micro truck...

Modern trucks aren't small, and certainly aren't "stripped". I still have a '86 Toyota truck (2wd, extended cab). Contrast its specs with the 2016 Tundra I own:

Curb weight: 2700lb vs 5700lb
Power: 105hp vs 385hp
GVWR: 4400lb vs 7200lb
Payload: 1700lb vs 1500lb

Granted this is 2wd vs 4wd, you can buy trucks a little smaller than the Tundra these days, but not a lot smaller. Even the 4wd Tacoma weighs ~4500lb and has a worse payload. There is nothing remotely similar to an older Toyota truck on the market today.

.

Yes sir damn impossible to find a stripped down truck anymores. I remember the days when you had to order even power steering. Even the basic Toyota now comes with AC, power windows and locks...among other things.

The SR 4 banger payload isn't too bad...IIRC it is around 1400 lbs. for the 4WD. Less that it used to be...imagine you could get that number up a bit, if we still could get a true stripped down version.

 

[boxcar1]

I am pretty sure that if one wants a true expedition capable rig one must build that rig. Nothing on the market today is built with this type of use in mind.
New trucks are pointed at luxury not payload. Let's face it. The Diesel pick up has become the new soccer mom rig of the millennium.
When was the last time any one even considered a new truck with rubber mats and hand crank windows?
Other than AC ( a must have in any expedition rig ) Most , if not all of the options available for new trucks are useless on the trail.
Yes, even the suspension and traction options are less than adequate compared to what one can add to a truck for less $ and much greater effect from the aftermarket relm.
Invest in tools and fabrication classes if you want a true expedition rig. Or make friends with someone capable of doing sed work..... JMHO.

 

[calicamper]

Its just numbers guys. Midsized trucks wouldnt exist today if the pricing / sales of higher end trims were enough to make the numbers work.
Same kind of deal for basic cars today. The economics of building them doesnt work unless higher trim models sell for enough profit. GM and Ford learned this the hard way not many yrs ago.
$50,000 -$60,000 f150's and other 1500 trucks create enough profit for stripped work trucks.

 

[calicamper]

As for the "soccer mom rigs" moms have a far far more influence on vehicle purchase today. Hell 50% of my buddies their wives are the bread winner by a long shot. Oh and sadly my only chance of a pickup today. Is one that has interior and ride quality that at minimum competes with the Subaru we use for camping and road trips.

 

[boxcar1]

Then don't complain if that truck also has the load carrying equivalent to that Subaru.
Call me old school. If I wanted a Cadillac or Lincoln Continental, I'd buy one. Problem we have now is that If I want a real truck I can't buy one. The good news is that at least for now I can still build one.
It won't be to long when even that option is off the table if certain legislators have there way.

 

[ripperj]

My 2010 Ram 1500 4x4 crew rode like a Caddy, but the payload was only a 150# higher than my wife's Highlander, despite the fact that the frame and suspension components were significantly beefier on the ram

Sent from my Passport

 

[IdaSHO]

Im not sure about your "little" 1/2 ton, but 3/4 and 1-ton variants any more are walking the thin line of compliance with regards to safety and GVWR

Much of it comes down to truck class, taxes, licensing, registration, regulations, etc of such classes.

And ALL of this plays into the max payload of today's trucks.

It isnt that they cannot safely carry the weight, its just that that applied gvwr plays hell into the numbers.

This is why you see big 1-tons with a 10,000lb max gvwr and lousy 1500lb payloads.

They have been squeezed into class 2 but weigh 8500lbs

 

[windtraveler]

Faced with a similar scenario I found what I think is a decent compromise and have been extremely satisfied. With a payload of only 1250ish lbs (Tacoma DCLB stock) and a limited budget we ran into several dead ends every time I thought I found the "perfect rig". I figured most of our "living" would be done outside so I focused on a comfortable place to sleep and reasonable storage space. Most of our camping is done on the coast in the PNW but we venture into the mountains and back country occasionally. During my research I stumbled across Rory and Jenn at Bundutec. After a few short design sessions I pulled the trigger on what he now calls the "Riptide". It is insulated (2"), heated, hot/cold water, outside shower, forced air fan, battery, solar panels, 4' x 6' bed, porta-poti, plenty of storage, and actual space to get dressed, awning, rear flood lights, awning lights on both sides, 20lbs propane, 17 gal water, 950lbs wet weight. All for less than $8000. I took the old school shell concept and turned it into a slide in. One key factor for us was that we had to have comfortable sitting headroom.

 

[ripperj]

That's pretty cool looking. The cabover is high enough to sleep in?

Sent from my Passport

 

[windtraveler]

That's pretty cool looking. The cabover is high enough to sleep in?

Sent from my Passport

Thanks, it is. And no, we sleep on the fold out bench. Some of our boards are over 6' so the cab over was initially built so we would have the option to carry the boards on the inside for day trips. As it turns out it is also perfect for bedding, our folding table, camper jacks if we take them with us, camp chairs, and a host of other items.

 

[Freebird]

Board = snow boards? Skis? Traction boards? Ramp boards? Boards for setting up outside camp?

BTW- I'm liking this thread.

 

[windtraveler]

Board = snow boards? Skis? Traction boards? Ramp boards? Boards for setting up outside camp?

BTW- I'm liking this thread.

Windsurf Boards, SUP boards, Surfboards, and Skis

 

[Couerl]

I don't need to recreate my living room in the outback. I need a dry place to sleep and prepare a meal in bad weather. I need enough insulation to make the camper heat-able in winter conditions. Good basic shelter. Most importantly, I need it to not be more of a burden than it's worth. I need something that doesn't limit my travels, but enhances them.

Comments?

I've been researching since 2010 what I want and nobody really makes it. The closest is maybe a FWC Hawk shell with a cassette toilet, but they cost 13k to start and no cassette on the shell model and a tent is just well,.. so much cheaper. :ylsmoke: So I returned to another Idea recently I gave up on several years ago, the Capri Cowboy camper is a box with a bed in it and a place to charge laptops and cameras etc.. I originally dismissed them as being too cheap and flimsy, stick and glue and stitch, but I think I could build one in a few weeks for about 1k and make it more robust. They come in around 500 lbs, which is perfect, no frills and that's good. I just need a place where my wife and I can pull over and go to sleep and maybe have a porta potty and hold our gear, clothes, rock hounding stuff, metal detector, laptop, camera, a gun or two etc. The way we explore is go out, collect rocks, check out petroglyphs, look for fossils, hike, then come back and eat a hotdog by the fire and go to sleep and burn our freaking paper plates (no dishwashing in camp allowed). We don't need all the comfort crap since we stop in a town every couple days and get a hotel and shower up anyways. I'm just sick of setting up camp and tearing down camp every night and morning when we move and would prefer a simpler solution where we can literally throw the folding chairs in back and go. In fact I don't even want to setup the popup on a hawk camper, I just want to close the door and get going and have an emergency place to poop or pee wherever we are on the road. Granted you can't stand up in these or stretch out too much but really all we'd ever do is sit down and play cards if the weather sucked and or sleep and read. The 50 year old stick technology doesn't bother me one bit. It's still plenty viable and I'm not looking to build something that's going to last several generations since the truck sizes will all change in another 10 years anyway and nothing will fit anymore whether it's still new looking or not and last but not least, I'm poor and this is all I can afford.