What is the deal with Rovers?

Viggen

Just here...
The "average" user hardly matters in a discussion like this. The average users won't be the ones driving these vehicles in 30 years, just like those driving Series trucks aren't "average" by any means. Just about everything for Discos is made by the aftermarket in the UK, and will continue to be because there are so many of these trucks over there, more than all other Rovers combined I would guess. Rovers are like Jeeps over there when it comes to the aftermarket. Just pull out a copy of Land Rover Owners International to see this. Range Rovers will be tougher because there were never as many built. I personally have no problem repowering one of these beasts, and plan to do so in the near future. As far as electronics go, just strip them all out and rewire the vehicle. Problem solved and it would actually improve the truck because the electronics are the most problematic thing in my experience.

David

I dont think that a D1 or D2 will ever approach the level that the Series are at or will be. The history, mystique, tradition and owner passion is not on the same level at all. I have looked through the LROi and see a lot of off road goodies being produced in the aftermarket but that does not show everything else that goes into making a truck like the D1 or D2 actually work. I dont know about you but I have never seen an announcement for a new power seat switch with contacts that wont fail or an alarm ECU that is moisture resistant or a window lift ecu with improved solder points in those rags. I do see axle shafts and sway bar systems. Unfortunately, those wont keep my truck functioning fully.

The problem with the aftermarket is that there has to be a demand and right now, the demand for aftermarket off road goods for the D1/ D2 is nowhere near the demand for regular, replacement parts and it never will be. The "average" user is the user that all parts companies, on the OEM scale, look for. The soccer mom that uses her truck to get to the mall and back. Thats where the money is. The money is not in people like us who build up the trucks and drive them on trails. We are not even worth their time. To disregard the "average" is flawed. Owning, working on and with, old British cars I can tell you that switches, relays, starters, generators, fuse boxes, bullet connectors, caps, rotors, condensers, etc... are the important pieces. Not uprated axle shafts or big bumpers. The money is in replacement parts and that is what is needed to easily keep our trucks on the road. Manufacturers in Taiwan have stepped up to reproduce, rather shabbily, the basics needed to keep those British sports cars on the road because there is a demand. There is a demand from people of all ages as the appeal is universal with MGs, Triumphs, and AH's. A Land Rover is not a universally appealing brand making it a niche market.

Range Rover production began in 1979 and ended in 1995. Discoveries, both 1 and 2, started in 1994 and ended in 2004. Already, there are things that arent readily available new and the Rangie has been in existence for far longer than the Discos have. Werent you against a factory style install of the 300tdi because of the EPA never approving it, making it illegal? Now you are okay with an equally EPA illegal Isuzu diesel swap? Youre using an engine from a vehicle in a completely different class and you are voiding your OBD system. I guess your views have changed in the last couple of months. That wont float in most of New England and an ever increasing amount of the East Coast.

Im lucky enough to have an OBD1 truck where emissions inspections are still done with the sniffer wand. That makes a repower a much better option as I can swap a motor in and with the right cats and settings, make it pass (unless its an '85 or older making it exempt). Like Teri said, find that 1994 truck and tuck it away with a few parts trucks, if you can find one worth tucking away. OBD2 trucks, in areas with emissions inspections, and the word is that they are spreading already, MUST have a functioning OBD2 system to pass (unless you use what Rob posted up). Rob, tell me about that simulator. How does it work exactly? Is it programmable so the readout on O2 and NOx will come out as within levels? Thats damn cool.

Ill keep driving them until I am rationally unable to keep it on the road. I am not interested in having to buy up parts vehicles. I am not interested in spending my spare time experimenting with parts off of other vehicles and modifying them to work and I am not an "average" owner. This thread is very doom and gloom but within a decade or so, I can see some scenarios like these becoming the reality.
 

Storz

Explorer
Kinda strayed off topic a bit, if you want a rover buy one!

For the time being there are plenty of parts etc etc. I love my rover, and plan to drive it for quite a while, but when I start spending more time wrenching on it then driving it I'll move onto something else. For me having a truck like a rover is more about the experiances I have while owning/driving it than the actual truck itself.
 

Paladin

Banned
tell me about that simulator. How does it work exactly? Is it programmable so the readout on O2 and NOx will come out as within levels?

I don't honestly know a lot about it. I just know that it appears to be what other car enthusiasts are using to get around the problem. Luckily I don't have an OBDII check on my emissions inspection, just a sniffer which, my engine-swapped vehicles have been able to pass. Luckily, my OBDII problems go away with a little black electrical tape.

The OBDII system does not measure or report on NOx levels. The ECU only controls a few parameters which influence NOx. AFR/O2 being chief among them.

Not that there is a problem with them, but they present a problem in swaping to another make of engine. From everything I've read, engine swaps are more difficult on DII's due to more electronic controls compared to a DI

OK. Yes, it adds anohter level of complexity to an engine swap. But is not insurmountable, and I don't think much more difficult than the physical challenges doing the swap. Not harder, just different.
 

David Harris

Expedition Leader
The money is not in people like us who build up the trucks and drive them on trails. We are not even worth their time.

I get what you're saying, but I wouldn't exactly say that there are a hell of a lot of people driving CJ Jeeps around everyday either, yet you can pretty much build those things completely from aftermarket parts. The off-road crowd, not the daily driver crowd, is supporting that market completely. If anything, the Discos at least can double as decent everyday transport unlike a CJ (and that's from someone who started on Jeeps and has owned nearly a dozen of them). My point is just that in the UK Discos are very common vehicles compared to the U.S., so the aftermarket parts support is there, not here. Britpart, etc, are pretty much making everything for these in the aftermarket, including rust repair panels, but not for RR, because so many fewer of those were built and are still around.

I have actually changed my views on the EPA thing after calling the EPA myself and finding that in practice, they really don't have a problem with after market swaps in areas where there are no emissions regs. I think you explained that well a while back when you used the analogy of the hot rod industry and all the swaps/mods going on there. The EPA isn't hunting hot rod parts suppliers down. Instead they are simply handing enforcement over to the states. If it can pass in the area where you live enough said from the Fed point of view. What they do have a problem with is bringing in non-EPA certified motors to the U.S., and especially those who are installing these motors as a business.
 

David Harris

Expedition Leader
Yes, it adds anohter level of complexity to an engine swap. But is not insurmountable, and I don't think much more difficult than the physical challenges doing the swap. Not harder, just different.

True. In fact, as has been discussed on here before, people have done integrated swaps into D2's. The best example I can think of is Roving Beetle's swap (see Dweb and Pirate) of an Isuzu 4BD1t into a D2. He integrated everything, gauges, TC, ABS, etc. It all worked like factory after the swap. Hell of a lot of work and not something I am going to try to duplicate with my D1. Luckily the D1 doesn't really have a lot of electronics in 95.

David
 

ipgregory

Adventurer
Range Rover production began in 1979 and ended in 1995. Discoveries, both 1 and 2, started in 1994 and ended in 2004.

Not to obscure your other points but the RR was released in 1970 (25yrs of production) and the Disco in 88 or 89 (15yrs or so of prod). Official US import started around 88 for the RR and 94 for the Disco. Basic running gear (rolling Chassis) is essentially the same for the RRC/D1/Defender (RRC and D1 bodies are interchangeable on the same chassis). Body panels and electronics vary of course and will be problematic but the basic mechanicals are very similar.

As an example, I have a 97 D90 that I want to keep going as long as possible. To that end both my 96 and eventually my 98 D1s will or already have become spares vehicles for the D90. Specific NAS D90 parts will become harder to get of course but the electronics at least for me are almost the same as the D1s. I bought a 97 precisely because of this with an eye to the future. Otherwise I would have preferred to have a pre-OBDII 94 or 95. Worst case is that I have to replace the NAS parts with ROW alternatives or remove them but the basic vehicle should be able to run for quite some time with what I have today.

The Rover V8 takes a lot of criticism but it was in production for about 50yrs and was used in many, many different applications other than just the LRs. I think that aftermarket support for the engine will be around for a long time yet on both sides of the pond. So I don't see the point of changing it out for quite some time.

Just my $0.02c worth.
 

David Harris

Expedition Leader
The Rover V8 takes a lot of criticism but it was in production for about 50yrs and was used in many, many different applications other than just the LRs.

Well said. The Rover V8 is the least of the worries. We'll be able to get parts for these as long as we live, I think. My only problem is that it costs too much to drive around in these every day, and so little range. I took a long trip this Summer and it was over a 1000.00 in fuel alone. Even more annoying was the fact that I could be way off into the back country, and only had a comfortable range of about 200 miles. 400 at least is what I'm looking for. So, with the V8 I have to carry four cans of fuel. These points more than anything motivate me to swap to a diesel. Yes it's expensive up front, but I drive about 20,000 miles a year, so it will pay it off in pretty short order. The range will be there from the start.

David
 

ipgregory

Adventurer
Good points but that is 'choosing' to replace the engine for other reasons than concern about or lack of parts availability. I hear you loud and clear on the range issue though. The D90 tank only holds 15 gallons!!! :Wow1:
 

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