What type of AC shore power protection are people using?

[Geo.Lander]

Hi,

So im ordering up and planning my AC input and distribution parts. I will be using residential type A RCBO protected setup rather than a marine panel or similar for AC, just because the features I am after simply do not seem to exist yet on bluesea panels etc, plus it is a lot cheaper! Of course not as pretty..

Question, I am planning the AC input to the inverter and found some pretty interesting integrated breakers with lighting ? protection and Over/under voltage protection built into the LN+PE breakers.. Should I be using OV:UV protection integrated RCBO breakers for input? Lightning protection? Should they be separate or just skipped because the inverter can handle and detect OV and UV situations anyway.?..

I see a lot of American based builds using polarity detectors, not really an issue in the EU. But i would be curious to see details of everyones AC setups.

 

[Neil]

I have done a little bit of research into this after a charger of mine got fried after a huge spike. . It was a really big spike as I was in a 110v country and my charger is good for 260v
My overlanding neighbour got his big Victron Inverter Charger fried in the same spike, so I got off lightly

Circuits and wires can obviously be protected to a degree with breakers and fuses etc.

However, an overall shore power protection gets harder and will depend where you are.

Nearly every surge protection I have seen relies on an earth / ground .

So far throughout my travels in South America and now Mexico I have yet to see a ground or earth wire in any shore power outlet. Everything is two core and usually on wires that would be designed for doorbells .

In addition you will come across a range of voltages from 90 to 250 and 50 to 65htz.

You will also see variations occurring constantly going up and down.

So at what level do you set your surge protection , its not easy to achieve .

Whatever you do, you will have to be hammering earth spikes into the ground at every stop.

The best protection is to try to be completely independent of shore power . This us not easy if you use air con or cook on electric.

I am sure that in the USA , Canada and Europe protection is possible as I think the power supplies are more stable and grounded

Neil

 

[Geo.Lander]

I have done a little bit of research into this after a charger of mine got fried after a huge spike. . It was a really big spike as I was in a 110v country and my charger is good for 260v
My overlanding neighbour got his big Victron Inverter Charger fried in the same spike, so I got off lightly

Circuits and wires can obviously be protected to a degree with breakers and fuses etc.

However, an overall shore power protection gets harder and will depend where you are.

Nearly every surge protection I have seen relies on an earth / ground .

So far throughout my travels in South America and now Mexico I have yet to see a ground or earth wire in any shore power outlet. Everything is two core and usually on wires that would be designed for doorbells .

In addition you will come across a range of voltages from 90 to 250 and 50 to 65htz.

You will also see variations occurring constantly going up and down.

So at what level do you set your surge protection , its not easy to achieve .

Whatever you do, you will have to be hammering earth spikes into the ground at every stop.

The best protection is to try to be completely independent of shore power . This us not easy if you use air con or cook on electric.

I am sure that in the USA , Canada and Europe protection is possible as I think the power supplies are more stable and grounded

Neil

Neil, depending on the brand OV and UV protection can be active (to the magnetic field breaker present in RCBO) to the breaker and not feed back into earth supplied by mains (N or seath casing normally). I think the lighting protection on the breaker I'm looking at is the same concept I'm not 100% thou... Either way one of these devices would have cut the mains during the surge even without an earth supplied at shore..

 

[Neil]

This sounds interesting.

I am open to any suggestions .

Would the system you are talking about handle the range of voltages required for global protection .

Would it also be able to handle power supplies that fluctuate from 90v to 200v and back constantly.

This is not an uncommon situation

Do you have any links to the hardware required.

Thanks

Neil

 

[Iain_U1250]

The main cause of spikes I have found is generators, especially older ones when they stumble and run rough when running out of fuel, there is a massive voltage spike that comes down the cable. I seldom connect to the shore power, but when we do, I use an inline surge protection device to protect the battery charger. It there is a storm, best to disconnect anyway, as not much would protect you from a lighting strike. Luckily this is not really a problem in Australia, unless the caravan park runs a generator. We normal just go for an unpowered site anyway, as we are pretty much self sufficient power wise.

I have one of these in the back of the truck just in case though.

Caravan Surge Protector | 1000 Joule Surge Protection | Ampfibian S1000DX

Waterproof Surge Protection for Caravans up to 1000 Joules & includes a unique outlet tester warning you of incorrectly wired outlets. Peace of mind for $89.99 Order Online Now!

ampfibian.com.au

 

[Neil]

This looks like a great device for 240v 50 htz power supply.

Unfortunately, I can se it working outside those ranges so probably not ideal for world travel .

Neil

 

[Geo.Lander]

This sounds interesting.

I am open to any suggestions .

Would the system you are talking about handle the range of voltages required for global protection .

Would it also be able to handle power supplies that fluctuate from 90v to 200v and back constantly.

This is not an uncommon situation

Do you have any links to the hardware required.

Thanks

Neil

I can send some links, I have more time a bit later so expect a more detailed post. I have not seen surge or over voltage protection in quite that range no. But there are customizable units available too, more digging and information coming.

 

[Geo.Lander]

The main cause of spikes I have found is generators, especially older ones when they stumble and run rough when running out of fuel, there is a massive voltage spike that comes down the cable. I seldom connect to the shore power, but when we do, I use an inline surge protection device to protect the battery charger. It there is a storm, best to disconnect anyway, as not much would protect you from a lighting strike. Luckily this is not really a problem in Australia, unless the caravan park runs a generator. We normal just go for an unpowered site anyway, as we are pretty much self sufficient power wise.

I have one of these in the back of the truck just in case though.

Caravan Surge Protector | 1000 Joule Surge Protection | Ampfibian S1000DX

Waterproof Surge Protection for Caravans up to 1000 Joules & includes a unique outlet tester warning you of incorrectly wired outlets. Peace of mind for $89.99 Order Online Now!

ampfibian.com.au

Totally right about that, nothing is 100% effective against lighting strikes that can reach millions of volts! The grid power in Greece (and I assume many places in the EU and ROTW) can fluctuate quite a bit and often has really bad noisy wave forms, I am assuming from faulty or just neglected maintenance on lines/transformers etc. Would be nice to have something to monitor this and cut off and auto-recover if possible.

In designing the AC consumer box I started to think about the shore power input breaker setup (Everything will be DIN rail residential components, cost effective and better technology) and started looking at regular type A RCBO breakers rated at 32A (would need a similar breaker wired with a transfer switch to accommodate 110V). Then discovered a whole range of over voltage and under voltage protection devices and surge protection devices..

I am still wondering if these are worth it or not? as things get expensive fast, especially looking at brands like Schneider...

I have found a whole bunch of breakers and protection circuits on AliExpress for decent money, a few of reviews online pointed me to the "best options" but nothing definitive, so it seems I might have have to test them myself if I go the Ali route... I was going to post a shopping list but it is getting a bit late here, if anyone is interested in specifics let me know! I will probably make a post later on on the build thread once I figure this stuff out myself..

 

[nick disjunkt]

Something to remember if you are planning to travel North America, as that the 220v supply is delivered by two lives, 180 degrees apart, rather than the live/neutral setup in Europe. It makes no difference to most devices but it's safest to have RCDs (or RCBOs) on both hot legs, rather than just the one, as is common in Europe.

 

[Geo.Lander]

Something to remember if you are planning to travel North America, as that the 220v supply is delivered by two lives, 180 degrees apart, rather than the live/neutral setup in Europe. It makes no difference to most devices but it's safest to have RCDs (or RCBOs) on both hot legs, rather than just the one, as is common in Europe.

Thanks Nick! I have not thought about about Americas yet, my thinking is to test the solar and DCDC (I am hoping Victron launch a more powerful DCDC converter soon) capabilities and hopefully be able to remain fully off-grid. Yea, I think ill use RCBOs (Type A 30mA) on all lines with duel poles (and active earth) just as a matter of precaution and not use a neutral bus bar setup for consumers.. thoughts?

 

[nick disjunkt]

Thanks Nick! I have not thought about about Americas yet, my thinking is to test the solar and DCDC (I am hoping Victron launch a more powerful DCDC converter soon) capabilities and hopefully be able to remain fully off-grid. Yea, I think ill use RCBOs (Type A 30mA) on all lines with duel poles (and active earth) just as a matter of precaution and not use a neutral bus bar setup for consumers.. thoughts?

I wasn't aware of the US AC arrangement before I went, but this is how I would have done it, had I known.

I was mostly self sufficient power wise, using a Stirling DCDC charger and a Morningstar solar regulator. I did fit a Victron Skylla universal input charger which allowed me to top up the batteries from an 110v supply if I had to use the inverter for an extended period for whatever reason.

 

[Geo.Lander]

Be sure they are mechanically linked.
If one trips, its companion gets tripped also.

Hi Verkstad!
Can you explain the reason for this a bit better? If there was a leakage fault one one circuit isn't the independent protection enough?