calamaridog
Expedition Leader
cruiseroutfit said:
Kurt,
Passionate comes to mind, but not arrogant:beer:
Where to shop and not to
- Thread starter coloradocarlisle
- Start date
Kurt,
Passionate comes to mind, but not arrogant:beer:
VikingVince
Explorer
Jonathan - what a well-informed, balanced, intelligent, and succintly stated posting....thank you.
Jonathan Hanson
Well-known member
Thanks for that, Vince.
Cdog - A16 is still around? That's great news. I thought they'd died when their national catalog disappeared. I would definitely shop there.
Kurt - I don't think you're arrogant either.
To get back to the whom-to-support question, my roundabout intent was to maintain that just because a business supports non-motorized recreation is no reason to boycott them, unless they also show an inclination to support the banning of all motorized recreation. Roadless areas need advocates, just as do backcountry trails. But the general trend in recent decades has been toward the steady loss of pristine habitat, so I prefer to err on the side of preservation.
What really annoys me is why wilderness advocates and motorized backcountry users can't put aside their differences and fight the real threats to open space everywhere: urban sprawl, overpopulation, and the massive waste of natural resources mandated by our current solipsistic national lifestyle.
Wilderness advocates: "We hereby state that while we enjoy the solitude, silence, and unsurpassed wildlife habitat potential of wilderness above all, we also realize that there needs to be space for those who choose or need to access natural areas by vehicle. We believe a balance of the two is possible."
Motorized users: "We hereby state that while we enjoy accessing and exploring wild areas by vehicle, we also realize that there are places where vehicles do not belong, places where the health of the habitat should be our number one priority as stewards of public land."
There. Was that so hard?
Cdog - A16 is still around? That's great news. I thought they'd died when their national catalog disappeared. I would definitely shop there.
Kurt - I don't think you're arrogant either.
To get back to the whom-to-support question, my roundabout intent was to maintain that just because a business supports non-motorized recreation is no reason to boycott them, unless they also show an inclination to support the banning of all motorized recreation. Roadless areas need advocates, just as do backcountry trails. But the general trend in recent decades has been toward the steady loss of pristine habitat, so I prefer to err on the side of preservation.
What really annoys me is why wilderness advocates and motorized backcountry users can't put aside their differences and fight the real threats to open space everywhere: urban sprawl, overpopulation, and the massive waste of natural resources mandated by our current solipsistic national lifestyle.
Wilderness advocates: "We hereby state that while we enjoy the solitude, silence, and unsurpassed wildlife habitat potential of wilderness above all, we also realize that there needs to be space for those who choose or need to access natural areas by vehicle. We believe a balance of the two is possible."
Motorized users: "We hereby state that while we enjoy accessing and exploring wild areas by vehicle, we also realize that there are places where vehicles do not belong, places where the health of the habitat should be our number one priority as stewards of public land."
There. Was that so hard?
coloradocarlisle
Member
http://www.sierraclub.org/benefactors/
UMMM Seldom did you do any research????? ----- Last I heard the sierra club doesnt really like us
I think someone may be misinformed, and this is what this is about---- new information so take it with a grain of salt your money you spend at REI does infact go right into a cup located in the hand of the sierra club.
UMMM Seldom did you do any research????? ----- Last I heard the sierra club doesnt really like us
I think someone may be misinformed, and this is what this is about---- new information so take it with a grain of salt your money you spend at REI does infact go right into a cup located in the hand of the sierra club.
Jonathan Hanson
Well-known member
See? Here we go again, right back into the us versus them mentality. Useless.
Coloradocarlisle, as a counterpoint I note you belong to the Blue Ribbon Coalition, which, to be quite frank, is essentially a front for extractive industries. The corporate donor list for BRC includes seven timber industry trade associations, at least 12 mining companies by a quick count, and eight oil and gas companies. Do you really believe all those corporations care about your freedom to drive on trails? Or are they really concerned with their own freedom to make big profits off of public land? A BRC press release called the Forest Service's Roadless Area initiative, which was supported by a huge majority of Americans, a "totalitarian lockup of public lands."
My point is this: It is much, much easier to point fingers than it is to compromise and work out differences. We can all gesture rudely at each other while open space disappears, or we can break out the Hi-Lift jack, get ourselves out of our respective ruts, and make sure there will be both plenty of wilderness and a healthy backcountry trail system for our grandchildren to enjoy.
Coloradocarlisle, as a counterpoint I note you belong to the Blue Ribbon Coalition, which, to be quite frank, is essentially a front for extractive industries. The corporate donor list for BRC includes seven timber industry trade associations, at least 12 mining companies by a quick count, and eight oil and gas companies. Do you really believe all those corporations care about your freedom to drive on trails? Or are they really concerned with their own freedom to make big profits off of public land? A BRC press release called the Forest Service's Roadless Area initiative, which was supported by a huge majority of Americans, a "totalitarian lockup of public lands."
My point is this: It is much, much easier to point fingers than it is to compromise and work out differences. We can all gesture rudely at each other while open space disappears, or we can break out the Hi-Lift jack, get ourselves out of our respective ruts, and make sure there will be both plenty of wilderness and a healthy backcountry trail system for our grandchildren to enjoy.
whitethaiger
Adventurer
I usually don't posts in these political discussions with all their all-or-nothing black-and-white arguments from each side, it's simply too frustrating to participate in these "discussions". But seeing Jonathan's responses I had to post. I very much agree with his points.Jonathan Hanson said:
I wish I was articulate enough to make points this well and I also wish I'd remember more from Latin class to understand words like 'solipsistic' without googling dictionary sites.
Someone mentioned Adventure16, they have a store not far from here and we do a fair share of our adventure related shopping there. I like the smaller store and the knowledgable staff. It's so much easier to get answers/help there than at REI.
coloradocarlisle
Member
Wow Im blown away no wonder we are loosing
Ursidae69
Thanks for shopping at REI now if you will just take a minute and donate some more money to the Sierra Club and sign some petitioins to close down the trails you use.
Oh never mind you just did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is there something IM missing or do you guys really not care. If you dont care thats fine but dont come on to this website rant and rave about how much fun you had on your last trip and then accually help is speeding up the process of closing down trails.
I belong to a lot of outdoor websites some with well over 1000 posts and this one is the one I thought would be on target but so far only a few people here in my opinion deserve to use the trails some of us fight for the others are setting our sport back. If you told half the people I ride, race and wheel with I dont know what they would do.
I too am about balance. Im 33 and have spent over 6 months of my life with a back pack on my back, Somewhere around 500 days in a sleeping bag in a tent or on dirt, my best friends are some of the best river guides in Colorado and have been for years, probally more than 1250 ski days so dont tell me about balance. My friends who KNOW Chaco sandles are the best for river guides wont buy them because the 120 mile enduro we are riding in will only continue if we all help.
Jonathan ever think those big companies have money. The BRC needs money because people dont care enough right now to donate time or money so someone has too. If you dont want the big pockets involved use some of YOUR money and talk some of YOUR friends into donating so the BRC can go rely on the people they are protecting the most.......ALL OF YOU!!!!
Do you like the sound of www.whatexpeditionswewentonyearsago.com
Im getting upset so Im think Im done here for a while, I dont mean to snap but I personally have lost thousands of acres of riding. Tomorrow if I want to ride my dirtbike on trails I have to drive a hour and a half. It used to be 20 minutes but we lost those areas. The 4x4's will be next
Ursidae69
Thanks for shopping at REI now if you will just take a minute and donate some more money to the Sierra Club and sign some petitioins to close down the trails you use.
Oh never mind you just did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is there something IM missing or do you guys really not care. If you dont care thats fine but dont come on to this website rant and rave about how much fun you had on your last trip and then accually help is speeding up the process of closing down trails.
I belong to a lot of outdoor websites some with well over 1000 posts and this one is the one I thought would be on target but so far only a few people here in my opinion deserve to use the trails some of us fight for the others are setting our sport back. If you told half the people I ride, race and wheel with I dont know what they would do.
I too am about balance. Im 33 and have spent over 6 months of my life with a back pack on my back, Somewhere around 500 days in a sleeping bag in a tent or on dirt, my best friends are some of the best river guides in Colorado and have been for years, probally more than 1250 ski days so dont tell me about balance. My friends who KNOW Chaco sandles are the best for river guides wont buy them because the 120 mile enduro we are riding in will only continue if we all help.
Jonathan ever think those big companies have money. The BRC needs money because people dont care enough right now to donate time or money so someone has too. If you dont want the big pockets involved use some of YOUR money and talk some of YOUR friends into donating so the BRC can go rely on the people they are protecting the most.......ALL OF YOU!!!!
Do you like the sound of www.whatexpeditionswewentonyearsago.com
Im getting upset so Im think Im done here for a while, I dont mean to snap but I personally have lost thousands of acres of riding. Tomorrow if I want to ride my dirtbike on trails I have to drive a hour and a half. It used to be 20 minutes but we lost those areas. The 4x4's will be next
cruiseroutfit
Well-known member
coloradocarlisle said:
Hahahaha
VikingVince
Explorer
ColoradoCarlisle...oh what's the use...instead of having the capacity to acknowledge and absorb (if possible) the valid points Jonathan has presented, you just keep ranting and raving from your one-dimensional perspective...bottom line: that makes you more a part of the problem than part of the solution.
Last edited:
flyingwil
Supporting Sponsor - Sierra Expeditions
coloradocarlisle said:
Was this comment really needed? This site has been free of flaming, and bashing of other members or their vehicles up until now...:smilies27
coloradocarlisle said:
Yeah, you are missing the point that we all have the right to think independently and spend our money where we wish. The reason we spend money is to buy something in exchange, and normally we all stride to buy the best product we can for our money. If we wish to support organizations that help support our interests we can support them too with our money.
coloradocarlisle said:
This forum is not all about 4 wheeling, it is about vehicle dependant living, and enjoying our environment and it's surroundings. If we want to go camping at a place that doesn't allow vehicle travels to the camp, we hike and not pave our own trails. I think you were expecting the support of off-highway enthusiasts, but this forum has a good mix of every type of outdoor wildlife supporter you could imagine, and thus you got a mixed result for feedback.
coloradocarlisle said:
I agree that we need to help educate others that are new to the sport, on how to treat our environment with respect. My biggest pet peeve is on the TV shows they say "now it is time to go test this and tear up some trails!" or something to that sort. That teaches so many people who really do not know any better the wrong right off the bat. People need to learn and it is our job knowing what is right and wrong to help teach them proper edict when enjoying the wilderness
coloradocarlisle said:
If you help teach with some of those 1000 posts, you can help make a change on the environmental impacts of off-highway travels. I do not think you are helping people learn by stating where to shop, and where not to. For a first post, you are opening your self wide open to criticism and need to take it with a grain of salt rather than bash others for their opinions and where they choose to shop.
Bottom Line: I think your effort level is great, but needs to be directed more to educating people you meet on your travels and adventures on how to treat the environment properly and with respect to keep our trails open for years to come. For me I support Tread Lightly, which focuses its programs and efforts in education and stewardship to further the goals of responsible and ethical recreation. To me that is the key. On their site they list each of their supporting organizations and companies you might want to do business with.
FourByLand
Expedition Leader
Jonathan,
Love the new avatar... almost brings a tear.
Just like seeing you ride off with her into that amazing Tucson sunset!
Your hat properly placed on your head and smoke rolling from her pipe, she still calls out to me....
:archaeolo
Love the new avatar... almost brings a tear.
Just like seeing you ride off with her into that amazing Tucson sunset!
Your hat properly placed on your head and smoke rolling from her pipe, she still calls out to me....
:archaeolo
DesertRose
Safari Chick & Supporting Sponsor
Let's keep the mud on the trucks, not our friends!
Hi everyone - just back from 7 weeks in Africa, and so just catching up.
As co-moderator of this area (at least on the Conservation page), I want to jump in here and say first:
- this is an important topic, and we all have our opinions and have the right to express them. ExPo is excellent for exploring new ideas, hashing old ones, and just having some good old fun ranting and raving;
- that said, it is our duty, not our right, to do so in a manner that sticks to issues and opinions about the issues, and does not personally attack or libel anyone.
So - a gentle reminder here coloradocarlisle: your opinions are important to share and we do want to hear them, but we have standards here on ExPo and personally jumping all over ursidae will do nothing but escalate an important issue to a nasty personal battle (should he choose to do so - but I think he won't). You can be vehement about an issue and stick to the facts. Take a look at many of the ways opinions are expressed on these more heated topics, and you can see how good "regular ranters" here are at doing do.
Welcome to ExPo, and enjoy this awesome community of people who explore and care - and let's keep the mud on our trucks, not our friends!
Hi everyone - just back from 7 weeks in Africa, and so just catching up.
As co-moderator of this area (at least on the Conservation page), I want to jump in here and say first:
- this is an important topic, and we all have our opinions and have the right to express them. ExPo is excellent for exploring new ideas, hashing old ones, and just having some good old fun ranting and raving;
- that said, it is our duty, not our right, to do so in a manner that sticks to issues and opinions about the issues, and does not personally attack or libel anyone.
So - a gentle reminder here coloradocarlisle: your opinions are important to share and we do want to hear them, but we have standards here on ExPo and personally jumping all over ursidae will do nothing but escalate an important issue to a nasty personal battle (should he choose to do so - but I think he won't). You can be vehement about an issue and stick to the facts. Take a look at many of the ways opinions are expressed on these more heated topics, and you can see how good "regular ranters" here are at doing do.
Welcome to ExPo, and enjoy this awesome community of people who explore and care - and let's keep the mud on our trucks, not our friends!
coloradocarlisle
Member
flyingwil said:
If you help teach with some of those 1000 posts, you can help make a change on the environmental impacts of off-highway travels. I do not think you are helping people learn by stating where to shop, and where not to. For a first post, you are opening your self wide open to criticism and need to take it with a grain of salt rather than bash others for their opinions and where they choose to shop.
Ah this we have done in one site dedicated to motorcycles www.ktmtalk.com 50000 members and growing there has been a HUGE amount of awareness weather you believe this or not probally 97% of the members who frequent that site are doing what they can weather its trail clean up. Going to public land hearings, donating money, or not spending money at certain outlets or stores. I do understand you have the right to spend money and that this site will have a larger number of people who enjoy the back country in diffrent ways however I still see this as a 4x4 site. I looked for discussions and did see some. I brought some information I knew of and was trying to bring another way to help to light.
Ursaede69 Im sorry for the punch bellow the belt