Which late-model Subaru has the best off-road AWD system?

[IdaSHO]

Never did I say they were gutless.

It is a simple matter of maintaining very slow speeds over/around obstacles. If you do not have the gearing to keep the motor somewhere near the fat part of the torque curve at slow speed, you WILL find yourself slipping the clutch to do so.

The problem gets compounded when you add larger tires.

So unless you have deep gears, an auto trans is much better due to the torque converter.

Dont get me wrong, I LOVE having a standard trans. But in the situations I speak of that require SLOW, you simply need deep gears.

 

[bentonrover]

I had a 98 modded Disco. Sold it for a 99 Range slightly modded. Electric gremlins forced that from me. That's when I bought a 05 Outback XT. I put a 1" lift from subtle solutions. I do miss my rovers but they just seem to always have something wrong with them. Would not trust to take me around town let alone cross country. My wife 04 Freelander seems to hold up pretty good despite the reputation. Gonna build it up something different though. Not to crazy simple. Good luck

 

[LRNAD90]

Yes, and more importantly, the Subaru rear diff is the venerable Hitachi R160 or R180 (STi, IIRC), so there are a TON of options, and most are available in junkyard-pull bolt-in-friendly form.

The usual mode is for OTHER cars with the R160 diff to get torsen diffs FROM a junkyard Subaru. I know my brother put a Subaru diff into his Datsun 240Z, for example.

I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to point out that most (late model at least) Subaru's use Viscous Coupling (VC) limited slips in all but the STi (which uses a Helical Cut Gear Limited slip that is a torque biasing design, but not a branded torsen), I'm not aware of any other Subaru's that have used torque biasing (Torsen) type differentials .

That being said, there are Helical Cut Gear Limited Slips available to replace most Subaru's Front/Rear and (in the manual transmission cars) center differentials as well, if you want to spend the money, but they are spendy..

On another note, ARB is rumored to be producing an air locker for the R180 diff used in 4 cylinder Nissan Frontiers. Since the center section is essentially the same, it could theoretically be fitted to the R180 diff used in the STi and Spec-B Legacy, which can be swapped into virtually any Subaru back end (with new half shafts). I did this long ago with an R200 front diff in a Nissan Pathfinder (fitted an ARB meant for a C200 rear axle)..

 

[ruckus99]

Old thread, but wanted to set a few things straight. I live in MT and have driven each system under extreme conditions. Here is their rank:

#1. 85-94 Loyalle manual w/ 4-lo. This is as good as it gets for crawling. Tons of clearance, 4-lo gives excellent control over rocks and power for deep snow. Fully locked transfer case gives the most traction. The downside is the locked case Causes the wheels to break free when turning on ice (inducing first under then oversteer) and also hinders sharp cornering. So this model is best for crawling, not rally style driving. Older 80-84 model is similar but less ground clearance, suspension travel, and power.

#2. Awd manual trans in the various legacy and impreza models. What it gives up in crawling it makes up in high speed handling. The awd allows sharp cornering without herky jerky binding. It also is better for high speed cornering on icy roads, etc. However, no 4 lo hinders hill climbing and deep snow.

#3. Shmancy new systems with braking traction control on wrx. Haven't driven these, so maybe they blow chunks.

#4. Auto with supposedly smart awd. These absolutely suck in comparison to the manual tranny awd viscous model. Here's why: in deep snow you are in 2wd. The front can't do it alone so you begin to slow down as you spin more and more. Just as you are about to get stuck WHAM the transfer case decides that maybe you need 4 wheel power. With everything locked up you have just enough traction to get going again until guess what, it unlocks again! Over and over. Spin lock wham. Spin lock wham. Then you realise you have 30 miles to go. Spin lock wham...... SUCKS!

So there you have it. Actual experience vs. Theory.

Cheers.

 

[JacksonRally]

I just read through this with the 2 minutes I had available and it doesnt look like anyone mentioned that you can lock the centre diff in the autos....honestly not sure about the newer (08 up) stuff but I would got with the 4eat. I have used both and put both in places they were never intended to go and the 4eat with locked centre, lsd rear and open front outperformed by far. This is why the current Forester I am building for my brother was bought with an auto. I am also rebuilding my GL which has the D/R (low range 5spd) because its what I got when I didnt know any better. If I were to start over with the GL I would run a 6cyl and auto......hands down, no questions asked.

 

[positron007]

I know this is old but such a great thread it deserves to keep going.
I'm in the middle of deciding between a 2014 forester 2.0ds manual with centre viscous coupled diff or a 2.0 xt with cvt transmissions.
Does anyone have opinions and information on the awd systems in these 2 vehicles?

 

[machine1]

I feel that the newer AWD system with VDC is pretty smooth, when you turn it off. That way you still have full throttle control with individual wheel braking.

Watching it work in ice, you can see the individual wheels being pulsed by the brakes...


It also works well going up steep hills, watch as the right side wheels kick up dirt via the VDC system...

 

[frank84]

Can you actually fully turn off the VDC on the new Foresters? My Crosstrek doesn't turn off completely and still kills the throttle if you lift a wheel off the ground. There is barely any suspension travel so lifting a wheel is easy and can even happen pulling into certain driveways and side streets in the hilly community I live in. I have the 5-speed so maybe the CVT models are programmed differently but I can have it at 2k rpms and be on the throttle and have the car instantly shut off - with or without the "VDC off" button pressed. I've had it happen in the snow on road and on some mild off road terrain in dry conditions. I'll have to try it with the fuse pulled next time I'm out, but the system is honestly pretty terrible.

 

[RubiconGeoff]

Can you actually fully turn off the VDC on the new Foresters? My Crosstrek doesn't turn off completely and still kills the throttle if you lift a wheel off the ground. There is barely any suspension travel so lifting a wheel is easy and can even happen pulling into certain driveways and side streets in the hilly community I live in. I have the 5-speed so maybe the CVT models are programmed differently but I can have it at 2k rpms and be on the throttle and have the car instantly shut off - with or without the "VDC off" button pressed. I've had it happen in the snow on road and on some mild off road terrain in dry conditions. I'll have to try it with the fuse pulled next time I'm out, but the system is honestly pretty terrible.

Wow, really? The videos above look great, but your experience is sure disappointing. What's the point of having an engine or an AWD system if these features shut down at the exact moment they're needed most???? We've been considering a Crosstrek or Forester as our next vehicle, but if this is how their VDC system performs, these vehicles simply will not cut it for our needs getting to & from our cabin or our light-duty backcountry trail exploration. I never understood vehicle manufacturers' insistence upon using fancy-schmancy electronics to simulate proven mechanical operation of a vehicle. What's wrong with a proper set of differential locks? Or at least Torsen-type limited-slip diffs? What's wrong with a low-range gearbox? And a lever-operated one, at that! I guess we'll just be sticking to our Jeep Rubicon since Subaru doesn't seem to want to provide a proper 4-wheel-drive system. If we can't creep across the drainage ditch and up our steep driveway without the engine/VDC shutting down and/or sliding into the garage door frame, then Subaru has just lost a sale.

 

[frank84]

The video of the forester climbing that hill does look good and I've seen some others videos too so I wonder if it is the manual trans plus the electronic aids that are the cause of the issue or something to do with the crosstrek/impreza computer programming. Once mine is out of warranty I'll probably wiring a switch through the fuse that controls the ABS/TC/VDC so I can turn it off if I get in a jam somewhere. The center viscous coupling seems to do its job seemlessly so no issues there. One other issue, at least with the 2.0 in mine, is the lack of any real torque below 1500 rpm so that compounds the problem of no low range and the manual trans.

Having said all that, I do still like the crosstrek and it makes for a good daily driver, all weather commuter and its fun on the dirt roads where the rovers are cumbersome. But if you go places that would be beneficial for low range and lockers then stick with the jeep or a "real" SUV - there's no substitute. The crosstrek struggled on the two hills in the pictures. This is a public road with houses on it in NJ and it took multiple tries to get up after the VDC would stall it out each time (even with the button "off").

 

[RubiconGeoff]

The video of the forester climbing that hill does look good and I've seen some others videos too so I wonder if it is the manual trans plus the electronic aids that are the cause of the issue or something to do with the crosstrek/impreza computer programming. Once mine is out of warranty I'll probably wiring a switch through the fuse that controls the ABS/TC/VDC so I can turn it off if I get in a jam somewhere. The center viscous coupling seems to do its job seemlessly so no issues there. One other issue, at least with the 2.0 in mine, is the lack of any real torque below 1500 rpm so that compounds the problem of no low range and the manual trans.

Having said all that, I do still like the crosstrek and it makes for a good daily driver, all weather commuter and its fun on the dirt roads where the rovers are cumbersome. But if you go places that would be beneficial for low range and lockers then stick with the jeep or a "real" SUV - there's no substitute. The crosstrek struggled on the two hills in the pictures. This is a public road with houses on it in NJ and it took multiple tries to get up after the VDC would stall it out each time (even with the button "off").

That's pretty disappointing. My 2008 Suzuki SX4 never had any of those problems, even with a manual transmission and a little 2.0. Disabling the traction control removed 100% of the computer's intrusion, but I actually found many instances in which the traction control actually helped as it acted as a poor-man's limited-slip diff. The road to our cabin looks a lot like the road in your photos, so if that sort of terrain is a challenge to your Crosstrek then I guess I can immediately cross it off my list. I'm not looking for a replacement for my Jeep, but I need something with light-duty offroading ability on par with my SX4. Hopefully the Forester in the videos above can handle a little hill like this:

 

[frank84]

Traction control systems seem to be different from vehicle to vehicle. If you can find one that only pulses the brakes and doesn't de-fuel then that will act like a limited slip and help in many situations. My dad's '99 Discovery worked pretty good and didn't de-fuel but there were times it was still best to pull the plug on it. Applying the brakes when you are trying to go forward isn't always the best thing. I remember my sister had a mustang that de-fueled when the traction control kicked in, but it had an off button that 100% worked.

As an added note, the viscous coupling center diff is NOT a locker and doesn't distribute power 50/50 all the time like much literature would have you believe. It only distributes it 50/50 once certain wheel speed differences have been reached (front to rear). At very low speeds in rocky terrain you'd likely have times that just one wheel would spin a bit. My range rover originally had a viscous coupling center and it worked great 95% of the time off road. But hit some tough spots and you wish for things mechanically locked together which is what I have now. I do think the viscous coupling is a good match to the capabilities of the crosstrek and I wouldn't change it since it is fully automatic, non-electronic, and does a pretty good job everywhere I'd be likely to take the thing.

And that suzuki is pretty sweet! From the picture, it looks like it is pretty lifted. I had an '01 chevy tracker before the subaru so I sort of had the suzuki bug for a while.

 

[machine1]

That's a sweet SX4! Suzuki has always made some great little off-road vehicles, it's too bad they didn't survive here in the states.

When I turn the VDC off on my 2013 Forester XT Automatic, I get full control of the throttle.

I had one incident during an ice storm where I was trying to cross an intersection and the electronic nanny completely cut the throttle on me. That was a scary situation because an F250 was also coming across the intersection to the right of me. Luckily this was all at 10 mph so I had time to turn VDC off and I ripped across the intersection with all four tires clawing through the ice.

Whenever I remember while driving through the ice/snow I turn the VDC off and I sometimes look like a rally driver when I enter a turn and the road I turn into is a sheet of ice (That's all we get here in North Texas).

RubiconGeoff, don't be discouraged from buying a Forester or XV. They are the swiss army knives of the crossover world. We just finished an event recently with 7 Foresters and an XV Crosstrek with a supporting cast of Jeeps and Tacomas. There are some videos in there of them in action.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...ft-Road-Meet-2014-in-North-Texas-event-report

 

[idn88]

The new subaru forester is advertising some option called X-Road. Is this any different than the others mentioned above. It appears to be an option, and only available at all on certain models? Anyone tried this. I am considering a subaru for dd, so I really don't need it, but wondering if it might be worth it?

Optional on 2014+ Forester and standard on 2015 Outback, Subaru X-Mode is a software program engineered to get you up and down vertiginous terrain using the traction control system.
X-Mode uses lower gear ratios to generate extra power at the wheels that have grip;
X-Mode deactivates the transmission's lock-up clutch to better direct power to slipping wheels;
X-Mode makes the traction control system extra sensitive so that it intervenes earlier during wheel slippage;
X-Mode employs "Hill Descent Control" so you don't need to apply brakes and risk locking them up when headed down steep slopes.

 

[WagoneerSX4]

Hey Rubicon! We miss you over on ClubSX4!

About the center coupler overheating on the SX4. We've long since come to the conclusion that running ESP while doing hard wheeling is what overheats it. The braking of the wheels causes a lot of stress on the drivetrain and a lot of strain on the clutchpack eventually causing it to shut down to cool down. I personally run without ESP on and find it's MUCH better in hairy situations like mud, sand or long hill climbs. Running with ESP really kills your momentum I've found. I've never had my center clutchpack overheat with ESP off, and I've put my SX4 through just as much as off road abuse as you put yours through, if not more!

Come back on over to ClubSX4 sometime, plenty of us are still abusing the crap out of our SX4's and they keep asking for more! I'd hate to guide you away from Subaru, but why not pick up a used Grand Vitara? Better off road than any subaru you can buy, much cheaper, dead reliable and great fuel economy with the 4cyl. It's the natural progression down from a jeep if you still want the off-road capability and a real 4wd system with low gearing.