nickw
Adventurer
It's almost like there are design/engineering Trade-Offs?
Cheap - Fast - Reliable....I guess in brake talk it's Cheap - SLOW - Reliable......pick 2 and complain when the third piece doesn't work out in your favor.
why I will only purchase OEM brake pads
- Thread starter ramblinChet
- Start date
Cheap - Fast - Reliable....I guess in brake talk it's Cheap - SLOW - Reliable......pick 2 and complain when the third piece doesn't work out in your favor.
IdaSHO
IDACAMPER
If you really want to split hairs, you should look into the difference between Genuine OEM Ford and Motorcraft.
They are NOT one in the same. Same goes for other vehicle MFGs. OEM is OEM.
And last I checked Ford actually manufacturers more of their OEM parts than most.
Motorcraft is Fords brand of replacement parts. Which is rarely OEM for wear items.
And OEM is exactly that... Original Equipment Manufacturer
They are NOT one in the same. Same goes for other vehicle MFGs. OEM is OEM.
And last I checked Ford actually manufacturers more of their OEM parts than most.
Motorcraft is Fords brand of replacement parts. Which is rarely OEM for wear items.
And OEM is exactly that... Original Equipment Manufacturer
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
You are speaking my language here, Chet - the data is critical. I think most of the chart from the video can be written off -- way to many variables to say if it would be repeatable results on other rigs - but the part that stands out to me (and reflects my experience) is on Test 5 between OEM and the Level 1 upgrades, the stopping distance is nearly 15 metres difference, and that's (likely) because of the heat issue I was referencing. Maybe in a controlled setting it would be 10 meters difference, or 5 meters difference, but the video does a good job of illustrating just how significant braking performance can sometimes vary in high-heat applications; sometimes seeing a 4x4 physically go 2-3 times it's length further on hot brakes than it does on cool brakes has a visual impact that demonstrates the principle better than raw data. We're not just talking about stopping a few inches sooner; braking performance is hugely important for safety, and there is the potential for significant variation in stopping distances if brakes are getting too hot or otherwise performing not at their best, and that can make the difference between a photo and a story, or a moose on your passenger's seat!
The trouble is, as you've quite rightly identified, how do we know which brand is best for our application? The video is not useful for that. And, answering that question is especially tricky when there's so much sales-speak from brake manufacturers, and the only way to know which brand is actually best is with repeatable data-driven analysis like you've shared.
The longevity thing I was referencing was about total pad/rotor life, which seemed to be coming up a bit in the discussion from others as one of the reasons to go OEM - they last longer. But, I'd rather replace brakes that work really good every 20k miles than brakes that are almost but not quite as good every 30k miles, so that metric isn't super relevant to me. "How often can they be used within a specified performance requirement" is certainly a valid interpretation of the term longevity, but I was understanding it as the former definition in the context of this discussion.
I think overall we do agree - safety is paramount, and brakes are critical to that safety equation. I know we've both seen rigs with $3k lift kits and 40" tires hauling things that are putting them 1k lbs over GVM and they are relying on the stock brakes to slow them down, which doesn't seem wise on many levels. But, there are applications where considering brake upgrades do make sense - going for bigger rims and heavier tires might give a person the opportunity for bigger rotors and more pistons on the calipers, which creates more surface area and absolutey would increase stopping power, which can be a good idea if a person's average wheel weight is 150% higher than OEM. But we so rarely talk about brake upgrades - search for a thread and you'll find few - especially in contrast to the "What kind of lift can I get because I want bigger tires" threads that crop up for every car every week!
The other application would be if a person prefers older vehicles - say, Land Rovers from the 1980s. They were limited by the technology of their time, but there can be really good reasons (safety ones too) to prefer that kind of a vehicle in some contexts - parts and expertise availability, self-repairability, etc. - but I would definitely suggest that a modern braking system, compatible with modern fluids that are not as hydroscopic as the old pre-DOT4 standards, and that convert drums to discs would be a very worthy upgrade to an overland vehicle that has as much metaphorical grey hair as I do!
But, for a new vehicle that is 99% stock, I agree with you that OEM is likely the best choice. To put it another way, on a stock vehicle in a typical use case, OEM is never the wrong choice! Lots of aftermarket stuff would be, because it costs more and sometimes performs worse - and that's where good data is critical!
No apologies necessary Chet - a good Jaw Wag in a pub could be about the same things, but in text it's easy to misconstrue and not quite understand what each other is saying. But the "seek first to understand" approach we've got here in this chat makes it easy to solve the worlds problems - We'll grab a beer or coffee together one of these days in a pub or around a campfire and chat shock absorbers, or oil brands -- that one will be a real great time
rruff
Explorer
I wonder why this is applicable to us?
Repeat hard stops are something that I've never encountered unless I was racing. Even descending steep switchbacks I can drive my pig well over the speed limit while barely touching the brakes. This is why I think a single panic stop should be the standard where braking performance is concerned... along with longevity, price, etc.
Alloy
Well-known member
There's no ABS on the test machine.
Last 3 times I had to E stop was on roads that were wet/dirt/snow. It woundn't matter if the pads were $ or $$$ becasue the ABS was running the show.
plh
Explorer
I am well aware of your point after working as an engineer for an automotive Tier 1 (OEM Supplier, not brakes, but other safety / critical systems) for the past 31 years. We also sell aftermarket and licensed OEM retail. Our aftermarket products are exactly the same as OEM. Might not be all the case for other suppliers.
nickw
Adventurer
In that case it's the same but it's hard to tell by the consumer if it's not labeled "OEM" or bought from manuf. Lots of BS out there "meets OEM standards" some are perfectly fine replacements built on same line, others are not and are cheap knockoffs.
If I had inside knowledge into a product being exactly the same as OEM but not sold under that name I'd have zero issue reverting to it, it just seems that most aftermarket stuff is always a compromise.
Even on my KTM's I always just use OEM stuff for the most part, just seems to to work better. Even oil, I spend $20 a quart for the Motorex stuff (subsidiary of KTM) they recommend vs getting something that presumably meets the same spec, but it's just always hard to tell.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
I think you right, rruff, that for most situations it's that first panic stop that's critical. And, in general it's a lot less relevant with newer rigs, but brake fade was a serious issue on older rigs which some folks prefer to use for various reasons. But specifically, it's especially relevant in my part of the world - there are a few important stretches of road that are both high-traffic (as in, lots of people pulling in front of you doing stupid stuff) and very steep in BC (the Coquihlla for instance) where I've had to do repeat hard breaking to avoid the sillyness of other drivers. Add in a rogue elk or sasquatch, and I like to know that my brakes work just as good at the top of the hill as they do at the bottom even if I've had to stomp-and-swear a few times. This is further true in my application - my OEM brakes are great in the above-described situation when my truck is empty, but when I'm towing heavy its more of a concern.
This frame is a lot less applicable in Kansas though, or on remote switchbacks like you've described where there's not usually multiple hard brakes if a person is using the other speed control techniques (i.e selecting the appropriate gear) and not surrounded by other drivers making poor choices.
Maybe this is a bit of a belt-and-suspenders approach but I like my pants staying up
FordGuy1
Adventurer
That is exactly why we SPW Motorcraft for noise all of the time, where OEM are rarely warranted.
IdaSHO
IDACAMPER
And do you who/what OEM supplies pads these days for Ford?
I know Bosch used to be a large OEM supplier....
FordGuy1
Adventurer
At my Ford stores, we always offer Motorcraft, or OEM. Akebono make a lot of OEM, Federal makes some of the Motorcraft.
Alloy
Well-known member
New Bosch is good but Bosch rebuilds are garbage.
I'm on my 5th RAM with an 'exhaust brake'. I've never replaced brakes on any of them. One model after 175k miles still had 3/4 of the pad left. I tow about 1/5 of the time, camper 1/2 the time.
The latest one will be interesting. Earth Cruiser TN running at 12k lbs, all the time.
The latest one will be interesting. Earth Cruiser TN running at 12k lbs, all the time.
Kingsize24
Well-known member
After I hit that magical 300 to 500k mile mark, I usually just get the ABSOLUTE CHEAPEST Autozone pads, and slap them on the completely grooved and thinned rotors. Every brake press is then an adventure!
ThundahBeagle
Well-known member
GM has 3 different levels of brakes. Something like OEM, Professional, and Gold or something. All original equipment, but 3 levels of quality
Top level lasted me a long time but replacement for all 4 corners was going to be well over a grand just for pads and rotors. When time came I put in slotted Wagner disks with pads. They did fine all across the country.
I'm on some other auto store brand now, thier top tier. I'm pleased so far and I put about 500 to 600 miles per week on my '14 Sierra Z71.
I realize this is all anecdotal and non scientific. I'd like to go top tier GM stuff, but also will need tires comin up and these brakes have stopped me just fine.
Top level lasted me a long time but replacement for all 4 corners was going to be well over a grand just for pads and rotors. When time came I put in slotted Wagner disks with pads. They did fine all across the country.
I'm on some other auto store brand now, thier top tier. I'm pleased so far and I put about 500 to 600 miles per week on my '14 Sierra Z71.
I realize this is all anecdotal and non scientific. I'd like to go top tier GM stuff, but also will need tires comin up and these brakes have stopped me just fine.