Why you should not listen to the manufacturer's 'Filled for life' claim

[DaveInDenver]

Just a point of view difference. Toyota vs Superduty.

My truck has inches less clearance under the diff, an 2-3 times the weight on it. Oddly, I worry about my shock mounts as well, but they're scratch free, ironically.

Yup, the way Toyota does it certainly isn't perfect. That bung does get beat up and eventually ground down. Another reason for the round plug is that a 24mm socket sometimes won't fit when the space is packed with mud or the bung has bent over.

 

[Buliwyf]

Yeah, that's a great idea.

When there is no diff cover, you kind of have limited options. Who's going to pull the carrier to change fliud?

 

[DaveInDenver]

The same fuckwit who designs automatic transmissions and thinks its Ok to remove a sump for what otherwise should be simple maintenance.

In fairness. On average automatics get oil change maybe once during the cars lifetime. Or at least its original owners time.
So just one nasty & expensive job is not so bad of a thing.
Subsequent owners, who cares. Any problems from neglect is blamed on the prior. And its incentive to just buy new car anyway.

This is something that I have recently figured out as to why I took to my Toyota way back. This is not a Japanese-vs-Big 3 bashing as such because Detroit is (1) not unique and (b) capable of designing things smartly. But Toyota appeared to me to be designed with the expectation of being serviced.

None-the-less, clearly point (1) and (b) was lost on VW because working on our old Jetta is a royal PITA, intricate and fiddly. And (b) is obvious in that Allison for HD applications does make it possible to maintain easily, I assume for fleets where it's got to last with abuse and be quick for a shop to push through. I will certainly concede that Toyota has dropped, my 2008 Tacoma looks to have been designed intentionally to be cheaper (e.g. planned obsolescence) and no longer be repairable indefinitely like my 1991 Hilux was.

So it seems to be all about product expectation and profit goals. Why put a drain and fill plug on a transmission that will go 100k without them? Then if you want to drop the pan to service and refill through the dipstick (which has also now been eliminated), well, that's your funeral. Commence tilting at windmills.

 

[Wallygator]

The trans on my '16 4Runner is the only thing that is a complete pia to service. It really irritates me it's like this. I honestly don't know what to do about it? Should I service it? I tow a lot. Or should I just run it until it dies and replace the trans then? So frustrating.

I'm currently leaning towards draining and filling with the same amount that was drained every other oil change

 

[krick3tt]

Is a tranny service less than a new Toyota? There are types of fluid that last longer than others, a bit more expensive but if you are not really up for services it might be something to try. Got nothing to lose. Rebuild it.
Or when it dies might be time to get another type of vehicle, but I have heard good things about the longevity of Toyota. I have had three but sold them before major service was due.

 

[Buliwyf]

Pretty sure I still have a trans dip stick filler. Dropping the pan is cake, 10 minutes tops.

Keep in mind how much bigger pan filters are than spin on. Might be something to that, I don't know.

 

[4x4JeepCamper]

I have drain plugs on my Rubicon D44's.

Only because you paid an extra $10k for the Rubicon stickers. I can make fun of you because I have one.

One the other hand, the idiots could have put a drain plug on the trans oil pan. It's a major pain to remove a couple of the bolts. When I did mine, I replaced the pan with one that has a drain plug. Sure, can't change the filter, but I can change the fluid more often, easily.

 

[Wallygator]

Pretty sure I still have a trans dip stick filler. Dropping the pan is cake, 10 minutes tops.
Keep in mind how much bigger pan filters are than spin on. Might be something to that, I don't know.

Yeah servicing the Ford is easy to do, which is surprising given how Ford seems to not want us to work on them.. The Toyota not so much.

Is a tranny service less than a new Toyota? There are types of fluid that last longer than others, a bit more expensive but if you are not really up for services it might be something to try. Got nothing to lose. Rebuild it.
Or when it dies might be time to get another type of vehicle, but I have heard good things about the longevity of Toyota. I have had three but sold them before major service was due.

Yes of course it's cheaper, my point was it should not be this difficult to service a transmission. If you knew what was involved you would see my point. There are many steps and I believe the dealer charges over $400 to do the service. An do you trust a dealer or some of the people they employ? It is hit or miss at most dealerships. I will find a solution and will most likely drain and fill when the fluid is cold, just not sure yet if it's possible given all the other steps they want you to do. . I would have a hard time, with my OCD, not servicing it.

 

[VanIsle_Greg]

I have a friend who is a bus mechanic for the local transit company. He said all of the buses we have are equipped with ZF transmissions, and they all state "lifetime" fluid as well (off for a commercial vehicle I thought). They change them out at 50-60K and he said some of them the fluid comes out like goop... full of crud and nasty looking while others (probably highway buses) its not so bad.

I asked at the stealership about a service on my Ram 1500 ZF 8 speed and when it was needed... they said never. I said if I want one, how much... they said $1700. HOLY CRAPOLA. Apparently the magic ZF fluid is like $200 a bottle here.

 

[Buliwyf]

Well it's $500 to put a truck on a lift and touch it anywhere. Then $100/hr plus materials.

Still sounds like a stiff price.

 

[naks]

When I bought my previous Disco4, it had 80,000km on the clock. I asked for a transmission fluid change at the next service but they said it's not part of the service plan, and quoted me R8k to do it.

The head mechanic pulled me aside and told me to take directly to ZF, because that's what they would do anyway, as they don't keep stock of the fluid.

ZF did a whole flush and fluid change for R4k, so the stealer would have pocketed the difference for literally doing f-all!

My RRS is now on 68,000km, will take it to ZF when it hits 70,000km as it's driven 'enthusiastically'



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[Hillbilly Heaven]

Ford 6R80 6 speed and 10R80 10 speed automatics are based off the ZF design. Ford and GM jointly developed the 10R80 and share some commonality. Yes they consider the transmissions sealed for life. They don't even have a dipstick under the hood. To check the fluid level you have to put it on a lift after it is warmed up. There is a short little dipstick located in the side of the transmission. One of the reasons the new transmissions have "Lifetime Fluid" is in eliminating band type clutches in the transmissions. They all use disc type clutches. This helps lower temperatures and contaminates in the fluid.

These transmission are designed to operate at optimum temps of 180-190 degrees F. Temps are tightly controlled with a thermostat built into the transmission. This allows quicker warm ups and reducing wear. Introduction of the thermostat is the biggest contributor to the fluid life. Add on transmission coolers are not recommended as this restricts fluid flow. Most aftermarket trans coolers have smaller than factory fluid passages and lines. There are aftermarket coolers for these transmissions, but you must know what you doing when selecting one. Coolers must have passages and connections no smaller than AN or JIC -8 size or 1/2 inch I.D. Lines must also be no smaller than -8 or 1/2" I.D.

There are aftermarket companies that offer firewall mounted dipsticks.
https://www.flowmastermufflers.com/...ission-dipstick-locking-for-2010-2017-f-150/?

Aftermarket pans are available to increase capacity and do offer a drain plug. These will add additional capacity and aid in keeping your transmission cooler. Yes you still have to remove the pan to replace the filter, but I will explain why next.
The most popular aftermarket pans are from PML.
https://www.yourcovers.com/index.html
Example of a 6R80 PML pan compared to factory OEM pan.

Now why transmission filters are located inside the transmission rather than having a spin on type like used on engines? The fluid pumps in transmissions are a gerotor type pump which is different than a gas engine pump which are usually gear type pumps.
Transmission Gerotor Type Pump

Gas Engine Type Oil Pump

They are required to supply a much higher pressure than a typical gas engine oil system. The tight clearances needed inside a transmission pump means that trash in the fluid will destroy the pump. To help protect the pump the filter is placed on the suction side of the pump. This requires them to be immersed in the trans fluid constantly. Gas Engine gear type pumps can handle small carbon and metal particles because of larger clearances. The oil filter is placed on the pressure side of the pump so an external spin on filter is used.

Yes there are aftermarket spin on filter kits for automatic transmission but those are usually placed in series with the trans cooler. They do absolutely nothing to protect the pump. Also they should NEVER be used on the newer model transmissions with built in thermostats as they will reduce the fluid flow and cause overheating.

 

[Hillbilly Heaven]

Guys with Allison transmissions bragging about having an external transmission filter maybe shocked to learn they also have one inside the pan on the suction side of the pump.

https://www.yourcovers.com/transpan_9517.php

 

[Buliwyf]

Be careful with extended pans. It'll take longer to warm up in the winter as well. And ground clearance is self explanatory.

 

[Hillbilly Heaven]

Be careful with extended pans. It'll take longer to warm up in the winter as well. And ground clearance is self explanatory.

Longer warm up not much a problem with transmissions that have the built in thermostat in the cooler circuit. The Ford 6R80 extended pan is still higher than other low hanging objects under the truck. If you are that concerned about hitting a pan then you need to be thinking about some armor.