Will Automakers Get the Market and Make Simple Vehicles Again?

[ExplorerTom]

The obvious answer is: NO. No way is one of the big auto manufactures going to make a simple, stripped down version of something they sell in North America. And, in my opinion, the driving reason for that answer is Supply Chain Costs. The more common each vehicle going down the assembly line is to the one in front of it and behind it, the less it is going to cost to manufacture it. Less training involved for the technicians to know how to install multiple versions of something, less worry about multiple suppliers keeping up with the assembly line rate.

And, like others have said, the actual demand isn't there. The market doesn't want super simple vehicles. Maybe some of the fleet trucks/vans you might find am/fm radios with crank windows and vinyl flooring- but I bet they are all going to have AC and cruise. At least the fleet vehicles at work are like that.

If you want that stripped down truck from years gone-by, then I suggest you go and actually buy one and do what the guys on TFL Truck did. I myself am kinda partial to trucks/SUVs of the late 90s and early 2000s. They seemed to be built pretty tough yet weren't overly complicated with computers controlling every little thing possible. I have 2 of those such vehicles and have found them to be very reliable and easy to work on when they do need work.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Why would you want that kind of vehicle? Less comfort, less efficiency, less power...and quite honestly those older mechanical, manual-everything trucks you fantasize about weren't all that reliable. Excepting some of the better built diesels, the engines were lucky to last 150k miles, even with frequent oil changes, and the truck platforms and bodies usually didn't last much longer.

Even the older mechanical diesels, as reliable as they were, aren't all that great when compared to the newer versions. They smelled like s$%t, weren't very responsive for highway driving, leaked oil and sounded like tractors (which I guess is cool for showboating on main street, but is unbearable for 5-8 hour highway trips).

Just get a F250 gasser with e-locker or a Power Wagon...they're very well-built, and will last much longer than anything built 15-20 years ago. Or get a modern (with SCR) diesel...they've seen a lot of fine-tuning and improvement in recent years.

I don't see the appeal or necessity of a dumbed-down, manual-everything truck.

These are all good points. I've had completely spartan trucks, early 1980s Ford F150. I had an FJ40. So far my favorite truck is my 1991. I didn't have any trouble coming to really like IFS and EFI. What I miss on Tacomas is crank windows and locking hubs mainly. What I think is being missed is an honestly utilitarian truck.

Power windows to me are less convenient because you have to turn the key on to roll them down, which is a pain when you're in camp or just parked. I'd gladly give up the ability to roll down a passenger window without leaning over for that. In a 4-door vehicle this is maybe a different criteria. Power locks are OK but I wish Toyota hadn't gone cheap and at least put a key cylinder on the passenger side, though.

Locking hubs are nice, less MPG hit, better for a 4x4 to save the CVs or be able to limp home if one breaks. Just wrap the boot with plastic and do 2WD. Also eliminates vibration on a lifted truck, or least lets you choose when you might want to tolerate it. Ergo, 2WD for long miles, lock the front hubs if it's snowing or on short sections of pavement.

These are things that Toyota doesn't offer as options, even the SR gets them now I believe. I wish buying cars was more a la carte but that doesn't make sense to the manufacturers, I get it that. Toyota does build fleet trucks but and in here lies a rub. They don't sell them to private parties. Why is that? Not enough demand is the reason to make it worthwhile. They won't even sell them individually to businesses, there's a minimum fleet size.

 

[al_burpe]

Were they older LC70's or the new ones. I posted a link in here somewhere about they are all updated now.

EDIT: Here is the link

Or can they still get away with the bare bones model in certain markets, brand new 2018's being sold is what I am asking.

I left in 2015 so I can't speak about any year newer than that, but even the 2015 model ones that we had were the bare bones models with the straight six diesel.

 

[al_burpe]

1) Those bare bones LC 70's sold in overseas markets are still pretty complicated: electronically controlled v8 turbodiesel with common rail injection; the most recent ones have EGR and DPF emissions controls; more variants are starting to incorporate additional air bag protection. I think there might be a few markets where Toyota still sells the old, pre-emissions inline 6 diesel in its LC70's, but generally-speaking the LC 70 of today is a bit more complicated than the earlier versions.

2) For as well-built as Toyota 4x4's are, I do think people tend to overhype them a bit. I constantly hear the anecdotal stories of how only LC's can survive the brutal work for overseas NGO's and industrial applications. Honestly, I think the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks we have here in North America get worked just as hard, arguably harder if you look at what kind of loads they are hauling and towing. I've driven a few bare bones Hilux's and LC's in my times overseas. They are spartan and capable vehicles, but I wouldn't hesitate to put a Ford or Ram 3/4 ton through the same kind of abuse. I think a lot of 4x4 aficionados tend to overlook just how capable modern American trucks really are.

Here is a link to Toyota Uganda and what they sell in that market. https://www.toyota.co.ug/vehicle/land-cruiser-79-double-cabin-pick-up/. It is still the straight six with no turbo. Guarantee that it doesn't have EGR and DPF emissions controls. You may be correct in that a 3/4 ton Ford or Ram would fair about the same, but let's face it the biggest reason no one uses those vehicles in those circumstances is that when they break (and they will break just like the Toyotas do eventually as well) there is no parts distribution network in the hard to reach places of South Sudan, Chad, Niger, or any pick any other remote country where NGOs operate.

 

[Clutch]

If you want that stripped down truck from years gone-by, then I suggest you go and actually buy one and do what the guys on TFL Truck did. I myself am kinda partial to trucks/SUVs of the late 90s and early 2000s. They seemed to be built pretty tough yet weren't overly complicated with computers controlling every little thing possible. I have 2 of those such vehicles and have found them to be very reliable and easy to work on when they do need work.

That is where I am at...late 90's early 2000's seem to have about the right mix of new and old. Maybe I need to start a thread on 'Why don't auto manufactures make middle of the road vehicles anymore?"

My biggest gripe about my '99 Tacoma is, I can't get a brand new one of it.

Even the most basic 4WD Toyota truck, doesn't have a manual trans anymore. Those are pushing $30K OTD. Seems a lot for a basic little truck that can't haul much.

Part of me wants a new truck, another says buy another of what I already have and keep them in rotation as they break down...another part of says buy an even older classic truck to fill that "gear-head-classic-vehicle" want I have in back of my head. For some reason I want to get a 70's 4WD F100/150 stock height and 32" tires, and toss that new 2.8 Cummins in it and see if I could get high 20's...possibly 30 mpg hwy out of it.

I left in 2015 so I can't speak about any year newer than that, but even the 2015 model ones that we had were the bare bones models with the straight six diesel.

*thumbs-up*

 

[rruff]

That is where I am at...late 90's early 2000's seem to have about the right mix of new and old. Maybe I need to start a thread on 'Why don't auto manufactures make middle of the road vehicles anymore?"

What we want is a simple *new* vehicle, with a modern engine (good mpg and hp) and other basic current tech, without the nannies, the electronic fluff, and other metrosexual comfort and luxury features. Simple, durable, built to last.

 

[Clutch]

What we want is a simple *new* vehicle, with a modern engine (good mpg and hp) and other basic current tech, without the nannies, the electronic fluff, and other metrosexual comfort and luxury features. Simple, durable, built to last.

Yep.

I'll have to disagree with DaveinDenver on the power windows. I like them...grew up with having to stretch across the seat to crank down/up the passenger window. Seems like I am constantly trying to get the "correct" air flow. So don't miss that at all.

 

[Dalko43]

Some people want those older vehicles, even though they there were less reliable, because they can work on themselves. So I can see the appeal there...now-a-days you have to take a modern vehicle in because it is so complex, which means a hefty repair bill. You can't even check the transmission fluid yourself on a lot of the modern autos. My old air cooled VW's were about as basic as you could get, I can do an engine change in a couple hours, by myself along side a road. (and have!)

Lol, Clutch you're smoking too much of something. You can still check the transmission fluid on most work-oriented trucks. You could never do a road-side engine change in a few hours for any of the old-school trucks. And yes, older trucks cost less to buy and repair, but they were crappier designs to begin with and are running on aged platforms; any cost savings is going to be more than offset by the continual need for maintenance and repair.

I'd rather spend $10k-$20k extra to buy a newer truck and have the peace of mind that I'm not going to break down at an inconvenient time and place.

Yes old diesels smelled, weren't as responsive, yadda yadda ya....but a lot less to go wrong. We had a bunch of older diesels in our earth moving equipment. Other than changing out the fuel filters...never had to touch them...today's diesels...repair bills can be rather high, what is the repair cost of the emission system alone?

Simply "just" buy a new F250 gasser or Power Wagon? Well, those are what $40K??? You can buy a used old truck for $5-10K which is pretty cheap to fix,

The old, reliable diesels you refer to are well-suited to industrial applications. They are not the type of engine you want to be sitting behind for a 7+ hour highway trip. Honestly, the modern diesels are quickly starting to rival their predecessors in terms of reliability; you can go 15k between oil changes with some of these newer engines and many of them are starting to hit north of 500k miles with just routine maintenance. There are still some kinks to work out, but I'd estimate that within the next 5 years, modern diesels will be just as long-lasting and reliable as their mechanical predecessors. Everything is electronically-controlled nowadays. I have no qualms about owning my v6 4runner out of warranty; I think modern diesels are on track to earn the same reputation as they see future improvements.

As for spending $40k on a new truck, you can get them for well below that price point if you buy them mildly used. Let some other fool soak up the depreciation hit.

Here is a link to Toyota Uganda and what they sell in that market. https://www.toyota.co.ug/vehicle/land-cruiser-79-double-cabin-pick-up/. It is still the straight six with no turbo. Guarantee that it doesn't have EGR and DPF emissions controls.

Yes, but soon enough even the 3rd world countries will start to adopt ULSD and emissions controls. Eventually people will get sick of breathing in crappy air.

You may be correct in that a 3/4 ton Ford or Ram would fair about the same, but let's face it the biggest reason no one uses those vehicles in those circumstances is that when they break (and they will break just like the Toyotas do eventually as well) there is no parts distribution network in the hard to reach places of South Sudan, Chad, Niger, or any pick any other remote country where NGOs operate.

This I agree with. Toyota's have such a international following because they are both reliable and widely common. I don't think modern North American trucks are any less reliable, but, with a few exceptions, they don't have the same international presence as Toyota trucks.

 

[rruff]

I'll have to disagree with DaveinDenver on the power windows. I like them...grew up with having to stretch across the seat to crank down/up the passenger window. Seems like I am constantly trying to get the "correct" air flow. So don't miss that at all.

I didn't mind the cranks on my old Toyota pickups. It was easy to reach across. But on the Tundra? No way. At any rate, like the auto trans, I didn't have a choice in the matter. I just hope the window motors and stuff are reliable.

Speaking of transmissions, with an engine that has an insane amount of hp and tq, and a 6spd auto, I don't miss the manual so much. My '86 has a 4spd auto, and that really sucks compared to the 5spd manual I had in the '84.

 

[Clutch]

Lol, Clutch you're smoking too much of something. You can still check the transmission fluid on most work-oriented trucks. You could never do a road-side engine change in a few hours for any of the old-school trucks. And yes, older trucks cost less to buy and repair, but they were crappier designs to begin with and are running on aged platforms; any cost savings is going to be more than offset by the continual need for maintenance and repair.
.

I know it's hard to believe, but stone cold sober here, have been for 10 years now! "I don't need drugs, I am drugs"-Salvador Dali

No dipstick on a lot of them...even on our' 02 Trooper (which is considered old now) no dipstick. So ok....you can still check it, but is a pain in the ***, have to crawl underneath it and pull a plug, filling is a pain too. I use one of those old school squeeze water bottles with an angled straw. It is like they want to make to you take into the shop just to check the fluid level...find that a little irritating. Not 100% sure, but aren't all the new Toyota autos that way? I haven't looked.


Cost savings...think it is a wash...then again I owned a '73 VW for 8 years, only thing I did was pull off the dual carbs the previous owner installed and put on a single. She daily drove it too...then I turned around and made twice what I paid for it when we sold it. So actually made money on it, so there is that. If you're going to buy a classic, buy a popular one.

I'd rather spend $10k-$20k extra to buy a newer truck and have the peace of mind that I'm not going to break down at an inconvenient time and place.

Hey, that is when the real adventure begins! My old beater does make me nervous heading into the back country...then again what's the worse that is going to happen...have to miss a couple days of work while you wait for someone to come fetch you? I always have a little camping gear and food in my truck at all times. And on trips, usually have enough food to last me a couple weeks...even though if I am only going a couple days. How that happens I don't know...always take waaay too much food with me.

That said...not sure if I should daily drive it anymore, all those unnecessary miles just running back and forth to work. Really should buy a little car of some sorts, and park the truck...then go through it and make sure it is tip top running order...which I do anyway, but hate putting commuter miles on it. It is around 15K/year.

he old, reliable diesels you refer to are well-suited to industrial applications. They are not the type of engine you want to be sitting behind for a 7+ hour highway trip. Honestly, the modern diesels are quickly starting to rival their predecessors in terms of reliability; you can go 15k between oil changes with some of these newer engines and many of them are starting to hit north of 500k miles with just routine maintenance. There are still some kinks to work out, but I'd estimate that within the next 5 years, modern diesels will be just as long-lasting and reliable as their mechanical predecessors. Everything is electronically-controlled nowadays. I have no qualms about owning my v6 4runner out of warranty; I think modern diesels are on track to earn the same reputation as they see future improvements.

As for spending $40k on a new truck, you can get them for well below that price point if you buy them mildly used. Let some other fool soak up the depreciation hit.

Oh yeah, I use to sit on those old diesels 10-14 hours a day, probably why I am half deaf in my right ear...that and running jack hammers, saws, drills, and whatnot. Long hours in one now would annoy the crap out of me...a modern diesel like that new Cummins 2.8 in a classic truck does intrigue me though. Put in a complete fresh drive train...should be good for awhile. Heard there is a 3.8 coming too with 400 lbs/tq...that might be just about perfect in a 70's F250. Feel those 6BT's that most guy swap in are too heavy for that truck.

We talked about this before. The engine itself doesn't bother me for long term reliability...it is all the emissions equipment around it. That and you have to pull the cab off most of those trucks just to work on them....repair bills go through the roof. Buddy of mine owns a diesel repair shop...and he rakes in the cash.

I have seen some of the gasser 3/4 tons in the low $30K's, so not too terrible...and those are the RCLB base models.

I didn't mind the cranks on my old Toyota pickups. It was easy to reach across. But on the Tundra? No way. At any rate, like the auto trans, I didn't have a choice in the matter. I just hope the window motors and stuff are reliable.

Speaking of transmissions, with an engine that has an insane amount of hp and tq, and a 6spd auto, I don't miss the manual so much. My '86 has a 4spd auto, and that really sucks compared to the 5spd manual I had in the '84.

I used to have long hair down past my shoulders...was driving my '92 Toyota pickup one day...and my hair was whipping around getting in my eyes and my face annoying the crap out of me...and me stretching over to get that ever so right airflow in the cab so it wouldn't do that...that and for the dog, never fails...you reach over and the dog gives ya a big ol' lick right in the ear. Long hair and dog are gone now...so I guess that problem is solved Though I still like my power windows. Truck just rolled 365K miles...no issues with the motors. The power door locks have been fussy though...I could live without those.

The ones in the Trooper will automatically lock after the engine has been turned off for a bit...it has locked the keys inside on me before.

3 of our old work 2.5 ton trucks had 5speed with a 2 speed rear ends, I always got a kick out of driving them. 5/6 Speeds in the Tacomas are car like...it is second nature driving those. In fact when I drive the auto Trooper I feel a little lost at first...tend to go push in the clutch pedal that isn't there.

Gobs of power and a manual I find easy...like in a Vette...it was that 70hp VW bus that was a little tricky...maybe because it was old, and the long flexy gear shift lever...had to get it just right or it would grind the gears... and it was happier when you double clutched it for some reason.

 

[Dalko43]

Oh yeah, I use to sit on those old diesels 10-14 hours a day, probably why I am half deaf in my right ear...that and running jack hammers, saws, drills, and whatnot. Long hours in one now would annoy the crap out of me...a modern diesel like that new Cummins 2.8 in a classic truck does intrigue me though. Put in a complete fresh drive train...should be good for awhile. Heard there is a 3.8 coming too with 400 lbs/tq...that might be just about perfect in a 70's F250. Feel those 6BT's that most guy swap in are too heavy for that truck.

We talked about this before. The engine itself doesn't bother me for long term reliability...it is all the emissions equipment around it. That and you have to pull the cab off most of those trucks just to work on them....repair bills go through the roof. Buddy of mine owns a diesel repair shop...and he rakes in the cash.

I'll just point out that the 2.8l Cummins which you find so "intriguing" has EGR on it. EGR, and DPF, proved to be highly unreliable in the early (circa 2007-2010) diesel emissions systems.

A lot of those bugs have been resolved.
The newer diesels with SCR are much more reliable and more efficient.
Toyota puts EGR and DPF's (though oddly no SCR) on its new LC's in certain overseas markets. I've yet to hear of any serious reliability issues.
EGR and SCR seem like simple systems to deal with which require minimal, if any, maintenance. The DPF does have a lifespan, after which it likely needs replacement. That can be costly from what I hear, but there are aftermarket options. If it's being replaced on an engine/platform with several hundred thousand miles of life left, it may be well worth the cost.

Still room for improvement, but all those horror stories you hear from friends and internet posters should be taken with a grain of salt. A lot of those emissions "problems" are from idiots tuning their trucks or just not following proper maintenance procedures.

 

[Clutch]

I'll just point out that the 2.8l Cummins which you find so "intriguing" has EGR on it. EGR, and DPF, proved to be highly unreliable in the early (circa 2007-2010) diesel emissions systems.

A lot of those bugs have been resolved.
The newer diesels with SCR are much more reliable and more efficient.
Toyota puts EGR and DPF's (though oddly no SCR) on its new LC's in certain overseas markets. I've yet to hear of any serious reliability issues.
EGR and SCR seem like simple systems to deal with which require minimal, if any, maintenance. The DPF does have a lifespan, after which it likely needs replacement. That can be costly from what I hear, but there are aftermarket options. If it's being replaced on an engine/platform with several hundred thousand miles of life left, it may be well worth the cost.

Still room for improvement, but all those horror stories you hear from friends and internet posters should be taken with a grain of salt. A lot of those emissions "problems" are from idiots tuning their trucks or just not following proper maintenance procedures.

Yeah I know...only find it intriguing...will never happen. One of those "what if" builds I do in my head all the time. I have the attention span of a jack rabbit on speed.

Broken record here...in about 2 years I may not have to commute anymore, might be able to "retire" from my current career and work from the house. Where we live can either walk or ride bicycle to pretty much every thing we need. Can't get much more simple for transportation than that, speaking of "simple vehicles". Will only need a vehicle for hauling the dirt bike, going camping, and running to the dump. Might buy something brand new, might just keep on fixing my old crap...might buy a small RV...who knows.

An all electric conversion interests me too, but why spend the time, money, and energy...when I can ride my bicycle for local errands. Have friend in AZ who has an early 90's Camry that he bought new, that only 30K miles on it, as he rides his bicycle everywhere. I honestly have never seen him drive it, just sits in the garage. Take my wife's Trooper for another example, since we live literally 3/4's of a mile from her work...believe we put a whole 900 miles on it last year. And most of that was me taking it to work when my truck was down for repairs.

As much as I am gear-head and like talking about vehicles (obviously)...I am also loosing interest altogether. Horrible, horrible things to throw money at. Pretty much on these forums for entertainment purposes only, have very little interest on spending money on anything vehicle-wise in reality.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I'll just point out that the 2.8l Cummins which you find so "intriguing" has EGR on it. EGR, and DPF, proved to be highly unreliable in the early (circa 2007-2010) diesel emissions systems.

Also if you read the product literature the R2.8 is only currently rated to EPA standards for 1999 and older vehicles. Perhaps it'll eventually get a Tier 2 approval for up to 2008 trucks (which would be necessary for JKs to get them legally, which is surely a major desire) but that's not yet an option AFAIK.

 

[Deleted member 9101]

Here's the easy to do a modern GM swap. Saw it at Daytona.

 

[Deleted member 9101]

A lot of those emissions "problems" are from idiots tuning their trucks or just not following proper maintenance procedures.

Bingo!!! We go through this where I work. We rarely drive our UTV's thus they get zero maintaince....and then people ***** when they run like crap and things don't work right.