winches

[punisher1130]

I read the same article when I bought mine. Its a bit noisy, and I lost the seals on the solenoid box after a few years. It was easy enough to take apart and clean, and then put back together with a helping of silicone.

I originally had it on a k2500, now on my f350. Toughest pull was the ford buried to it's axles in a cow pasture towing a 7k lb chipper. Basically 16-17k lbs. It was slow but it pulled the truck to firmer ground.
You can't buy a used winch and 3/8 amsteel for what engo is selling them for. Oh and forget the damper, not needed with synthetic line.
If I was looking to put a winch on my f150 I would want 5/16" amsteel to fit more line on there. 3/8" is overkill on a 5k lb vehicle.
I think the biggest problem most people have, especially on this site, is they feel like they need to bring a metric $hit ton of stuff with them. Keep it simple and keep your rig light and you will not be as worried about breaking stuff. I guess alot of this is "cool factor" but there are lots of other devices that work just as well as a winch and are much cheaper and more versatile. http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=1924&item=1856
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=1924&item=1888

Also instead of straps for recovery I prefer to use double braid rope. A little stretch goes a long way. Plus they are cheaper, can easily be spliced by hand, and are infinitely adjustable when knots are used. Yes they store energy but they are nowhere near as dangerous as steel cable, and they have alot more cycles to failure than static rope (ie amsteel)
Sorry to get off the winch topic, although it seems like this thread sort of went towards general recovery info.

Its fine, the more knowledge the better since I am new to this and it kind of does fall under the subject since a winch is useless without cable or rope lol.

 

[TeriAnn]

Wow that is a lot of info, didn't know any of that.

That is just a little taste of what is in my book "The Essential Guide to Overland Travel in The United States and Canada". The book as been in for making for 2 years now and includes lots of things such as the types of guns an American can bring into Canada, bringing children with you into Canada, traveling with a dog, choosing camp sites that take advantage of weather conditions, Which woods to pair with different foods when cooking over a camp fire, why you do not want to set up camp next to a mature cottonwood tree, selecting and setting up a vehicle for overland travel so that it best meets your personal travel needs, How fibers and fiber blends define how clothing performs in different weather conditions, and way more. The entire book is written with a strong do no harm and leave no trace behind ethic. Right now the book has has been initially formatted and pictures are being added. Once the pictures have been added it will undergo at least one more round of review, probably two to get a book that my editors can no longer find an out of place coma in a caption. The cover is almost finalized. We are still working on the best subtitle to get someone to pick the book up, read the back cover and flip through the pages.

I intend to introduce the book at Overland Expo East this October. I recently discovered that the cost of color printing is about 4 times more expensive than B&W printing so at this moment I'm inclined to have both a color edition and a less expensive B&W edition with several gratuitous color scenic pictures removed that are just there to show some of the beauty of North America and does not help illustrate concepts. Some of the scenic pictures just fall flat in B&W, such as trees in red fall color against red cliffs. and alpenglow turning halfdome pink. I do not want to have the book priced above the means of people with modest incomes and at the same time I think the selected scenic photos really add to the overall feel of the book and enhances the colour photos that manufactures have sent to me to help provide the reader with a better idea of the types and uses of products that are out there to improve people's overlanding experience and safety. North America has been blessed with many of the world's most scenic areas and you can spend a lifetime on the trail exploring and not see them all.

Click on the book link below and you will get to the unfinalized book table of contents and the book introduction.

 

[punisher1130]

That is just a little taste of what is in my book "The Essential Guide to Overland Travel in The United States and Canada". The book as been in for making for 2 years now and includes lots of things such as the types of guns an American can bring into Canada, bringing children with you into Canada, traveling with a dog, choosing camp sites that take advantage of weather conditions, Which woods to pair with different foods when cooking over a camp fire, why you do not want to set up camp next to a mature cottonwood tree, selecting and setting up a vehicle for overland travel so that it best meets your personal travel needs, How fibers and fiber blends define how clothing performs in different weather conditions, and way more. The entire book is written with a strong do no harm and leave no trace behind ethic. Right now the book has has been initially formatted and pictures are being added. Once the pictures have been added it will undergo at least one more round of review, probably two to get a book that my editors can no longer find an out of place coma in a caption. The cover is almost finalized. We are still working on the best subtitle to get someone to pick the book up, read the back cover and flip through the pages.

I intend to introduce the book at Overland Expo East this October. I recently discovered that the cost of color printing is about 4 times more expensive than B&W printing so at this moment I'm inclined to have both a color edition and a less expensive B&W edition with several gratuitous color scenic pictures removed that are just there to show some of the beauty of North America and does not help illustrate concepts. Some of the scenic pictures just fall flat in B&W, such as trees in red fall color against red cliffs. and alpenglow turning halfdome pink. I do not want to have the book priced above the means of people with modest incomes and at the same time I think the selected scenic photos really add to the overall feel of the book and enhances the colour photos that manufactures have sent to me to help provide the reader with a better idea of the types and uses of products that are out there to improve people's overlanding experience and safety. North America has been blessed with many of the world's most scenic areas and you can spend a lifetime on the trail exploring and not see them all.

Click on the book link below and you will get to the unfinalized book table of contents and the book introduction.

Though I don't plan on going to Canada, no way I could afford that lol, sounds like a book I need to add to my book list. I do believe in leaving nothing but foot prints behind so I already have that in practice in my day to day life but I know I am way off on knowing what I need so I have a list of books on amazon I am looking to get that covers everything from normal camping and bush craft to survival and bug out stuff ( book on B.O.V. too). At best I have a general idea on things and I do know how to drive better than most but I don't know enough to say I know what I'm doing on my own so I will need some wheel time in a group before I venture on my own. As for my truck, well lets just say its not a common truck used for this but it has a lot of quality's that if its built right could very well be one of the best rigs for it, at least that's what I think based on my research of common 4x4's used for expo and the pros and cons of them, just a pain everything has to be custom on it, no love for my truck off road .

 

[TeriAnn]

I hear yah! I would also think a tow strap would work find as a tree strap, provided the strap is rated high enough for the load.

Yes. Both a tow strap and a tree strap are a woven polyester with a stretch factor of about 3ish%. A recovery strap is made from nylon and has a stretch actor of around 10ish% or more. The extra stretch of a nylon strap adds a large unpredictable force to a pull when used as a tree strap, tow strap, or winch extension line. Towing another vehicle with a recovery strap is kind of like the towed vehicle being a yo-yo. But yes you can use a tow strap as a tree strap. Just don't exceed the safe working limit of the strap.

The nylon straps should only be used for a two vehicle snatch extraction where the extra stretch pulls the stuck vehicle when it starts to move. Pull ropes are also nylon and have a much longer stretch which eases the extraction.

 

[greengreer]

I wouldn't worry so much about stretch in a tow strap when used as a tree saver. Say you have a difference of 3% to 10% stretch at a certain percentage of abs or mbs for two different straps. Most straps being 20-30' long. That's a matter of inches, especially in a basket configuration (which is how you should be setting up a tree saver). If that's going to seriously affect your winching in anyway I would be surprised. If it would become a cause for a safety concern then you are already way past any safe margin of error in your recovery plan and should probably rethink some things.
Let's face it, at the lengths most recovery gear is made in the issues of stretch are, for all practicality, irrelevant. What is relevant however is cycles to failure. In other words a rope or strap that has more stretch will take more "yanks" before it will fail than one with less stretch. These type ropes also can reduce shocj loading of recovery points, tow hooks, etc.

To simplify things even further. Leave the amsteel and other static ropes for winchline. Use polyester or a polyester rope with a nylon core for recovery ropes. Make sure you know how your rigging affects the strength of the components you use. Make sure that if you do use dynamic ropes or straps that they are setup in a way that they dont send heavy objects hurtling and crippling speeds. Err on the side of caution when you are playing with thousands of pounds of tension.

 

[punisher1130]

Ok so then I need to make a trip back to the store I bought the strap at and see what its made off, had it for so long I don't remember. If it doesn't have anything concerning polyester or anything dealing with material to allow stretch without storing energy in it then my safest bet is to get a dedicated recovery tree saver, am I understanding that correct? ( in a nut shell)

 

[greengreer]

In a nutshell, don't worry about it. The only thing I would be concerned about is the load rating of the strap, and of course the condition it's in.
Generally a tree save strap is just shorter and fatter.
My prior long winded post was more of an argument on textiles than actual advice.

 

[punisher1130]

Ah ok, then my strap is good, dirty but good, I try not to let things get past there prime.

 

[TeriAnn]

I wouldn't worry so much about stretch in a tow strap when used as a tree saver. Say you have a difference of 3% to 10% stretch at a certain percentage of abs or mbs for two different straps. Most straps being 20-30' long. That's a matter of inches

I would not worry at all about using either a tow strap or a winch extension strap as a tree saver. They are all a polyester weave with minimal stretch factor. I would get concerned about using a nylon snatch strap as a tow strap, winch extension strap and depending upon the type of pull, a tree strap. Nylon snatch straps are woven to maximize stretch, which means maximize kinetic force buildup and release.

Let's face it, at the lengths most recovery gear is made in the issues of stretch are, for all practicality, irrelevant.

If that were that simple, manufacturers would just save money by making all their straps out of one material. They use different materials and possibly different weaves to either minimize or maximize kinetic forces in a pull line. It is never wise to ignore kinetic energy and how a material's ability to absorb the sudden application of large amounts of energy affects the integrity of the material. Of for that matter what happens to a pull line when a large amount of kinetic energy is suddenly released during a pull line failure. Also nylon snatch straps an easily withstand shock loading forces that would break the polyester straps.

Ok so then I need to make a trip back to the store I bought the strap at and see what its made off, had it for so long I don't remember.

If a recovery strap were certified to meet a recognized safety and performance standard there would have been a label sewn onto the strap. Never forget that non-certified straps do not need to pass any performance testing. If you shop where straps are sold into the lifting, arbor, and construction industries or to the military you will find certified straps that are tested to meet recognized performance standards and have labels sewn onto the strap that provides the safe working load of the strap. Just because you use a strap for recreational vehicle recovery does not mean you have to buy a strap made for that industry when there are alternatives out there tested and certified to meet or exceed your needs.

Generally a tree save strap is just shorter and fatter.

To complete the sentence: "than either a tow strap or a winch extension strap, all of which are woven polyester to minimize stretch". A nylon snatch strap is a different animal that looks the same but has different kinetic properties when a pull is applied.

Ah ok, then my strap is good, dirty but good,

Never forget that both polyester and nylon straps will rot from excess exposure to sunlight and from being put away wet. Angular dirt particles will abrade the individual threads and weaken the strap. Some strap manufacturers provide storage bags to help the end user keep their straps clean. When you get home after using a strap it is always a good idea to clean the strap in a bucket of warm soapy water to get dirt particles off, then air dry the strap by hanging it in the shade. Never soak a strap, just run it through a bucket one section at a time to clean it.

First recovery strap I had was a 4 inch wide strap. Used it on a mud run and stored it dirty and wet. Next time I went to use it the strap was rotten and you could almost pull it apart with two people tugging on it.

 

[punisher1130]

The strap I have is rated for a little more than my GVW, its 5,666 to my 5,480 truck rating so I think it would be ok in that since, as for it being dirty its actually just road grime from tying to the front end of my friends car when she broke down, so its more of a stain then normal dirt. I have it in a little aluminum tool box so its not in the direct sun, its in the bed of the truck with my d-ring and recovery hitch.

 

[greengreer]

The strap I have is rated for a little more than my GVW, its 5,666 to my 5,480 truck rating so I think it would be ok in that since, as for it being dirty its actually just road grime from tying to the front end of my friends car when she broke down, so its more of a stain then normal dirt. I have it in a little aluminum tool box so its not in the direct sun, its in the bed of the truck with my d-ring and recovery hitch.

If that 5666 number is working load limit you should be ok. As far as I know the general rule of thumb for the recovery industry is 2:1 WLL. This is unregulated however and the user should do their own research.

TeriAnn:
I understand your argument against nylon tow straps in certain situations. They can become dangerous when used beyond their swl or when combined with another component being used inappropriately. Quite simply most consumers in the recreational recovery market are not trained or experienced enough to figure all of the factors in play in some situations.
Concerning the stretch of a nylon sling in a winching operation I still highly doubt you will see an issue. Let's look at some numbers. Let's say your "average" nylon recovery strap, 30' long 3" wide 2ply cordura, is used as a tree saver. Lets say the vehicle weighs 3t and needs 4t force get unstuck. Lets also assume a normal sized winch a vehicle this size is 9 or 10k lbs capacity, therefore capable of creating the pull required to get the vehicle unstuck.

Back to our strap, the break strength is 44k lbs (is this minimum or average? Not sure) with the manufacturer recommending a 2:1 wll, so 22k lbs. The manufacturer also tells us to expect 15-20% stretch at wll. Set up in a basket configuration, which is correct for a tree saver, each end of the strap will now see roughly 2t of pull. That is roughly 20% of swl. Roughly crunching numbers in my head we can figure on about each leg of the strap stretching a little over a foot.
If the same strap was used as a winchline extension in the same scenario we would see a little over 2ft of stretch.
What I am arguing is that it is not unsafe to use a nylon strap or a nylon core rope when winching as long as safety protocols are followed and all known variables are considered.

 

[TeriAnn]

with the manufacturer recommending a 2:1 wll,

It looks to me that our only real disagreement is on what is a safe margin. First, since there are no safety or performance regulations governing equipment used for the recreational recovery industry. Specifications provided by manufacturer's may or may not mean anything. It might mean the spec of a certified material used in a finished product or a number a marketing geek thinks will help sell a product. I used to work for Underwriters Laboratories and have seen some really dangerous shoddy products sent in for UL listing. Usually reputable companies with a brand to protect try to do the right thing but there are a lot of no name or discount product and parts suppliers who squeeze every penny out of materials and construction.

Anyway, when you look at almost all the straps sold into the recreational vehicle recovery sector the only spec provided is the minimum breaking strength. The common definition of minimum breaking strength is the amount of pull that can be applied to a NEW CONDITION strap and not have it expected to break. It doesn't mean that it absolutely won't break, just that you don't expect it to happen. And of course with use and some environmental conditions the strap does deteriorate, meaning it will take less pull for the strap to fail.

In an unregulated industry the manufacturer is free to say anything he wants about the performance of a product or what they think might be a safe margin. In regulated industries where the lives of a thousand plus people a day depend upon a strap not failing most performance safety standards have a safe working load or working load limit set at about 1/4 the minimum breaking strength which is verified by performance testing. In some critical applications the SWL is about 1/5 the minimum breaking strength specification and is again verified by rigid test procedures. You can argue that forces involved in recreational recovery are not as great or the dangers are not as great but physics does not change depending upon the industry and a vehicle stuck down to the frame in a sucking silt can take a force equal to or exceeding 3X the vehicle weight to extract it. The physics involved does not change between a vertical pull or a horizontal pull.

Of course anyone is free to use any product they wish. I have a friend that uses a strap thrown away by an arbor contractor because it was worn to the point where it was no longer considered safe. Personally I have seen a lot of products fail performance testing and have learned to have a very healthy respect for the sudden release of kinetic energy. So personally I will seek out products certified to meet recognized performance standards and where I only find a minimum breaking strength I will divide by 4 to come up with a SWL number.

 

[punisher1130]

If that 5666 number is working load limit you should be ok. As far as I know the general rule of thumb for the recovery industry is 2:1 WLL. This is unregulated however and the user should do their own research.

TeriAnn:
I understand your argument against nylon tow straps in certain situations. They can become dangerous when used beyond their swl or when combined with another component being used inappropriately. Quite simply most consumers in the recreational recovery market are not trained or experienced enough to figure all of the factors in play in some situations.
Concerning the stretch of a nylon sling in a winching operation I still highly doubt you will see an issue. Let's look at some numbers. Let's say your "average" nylon recovery strap, 30' long 3" wide 2ply cordura, is used as a tree saver. Lets say the vehicle weighs 3t and needs 4t force get unstuck. Lets also assume a normal sized winch a vehicle this size is 9 or 10k lbs capacity, therefore capable of creating the pull required to get the vehicle unstuck.

Back to our strap, the break strength is 44k lbs (is this minimum or average? Not sure) with the manufacturer recommending a 2:1 wll, so 22k lbs. The manufacturer also tells us to expect 15-20% stretch at wll. Set up in a basket configuration, which is correct for a tree saver, each end of the strap will now see roughly 2t of pull. That is roughly 20% of swl. Roughly crunching numbers in my head we can figure on about each leg of the strap stretching a little over a foot.
If the same strap was used as a winchline extension in the same scenario we would see a little over 2ft of stretch.
What I am arguing is that it is not unsafe to use a nylon strap or a nylon core rope when winching as long as safety protocols are followed and all known variables are considered.

I don't know about all that, all it said was load limit.

 

[verdesardog]

I don't know about all that, all it said was load limit.

Load limit is probably the safe working load limit which is normally down rated about 3:1 from breaking strength.

I would NEVER use a stretch strap as a winch line extension, if ANY part of the rigging would fail you would have a gigantic slingshot throwing stuff in the air.

 

[punisher1130]

Maybe things changed that they have to put a more exact number? Not really sure my self that's just what it said on the label.