Tow strap vs. Kinetic rope

michaelgroves

Explorer
All I am trying to do is explain what I have experienced. I have improperly used a tow strap in the past before I knew any better and I have used a kinetic rope and I can tell you which one is better and safer to use.

...
If used properly, the kinetic rope is not only safe but a very effective and quick means of recovery.
I think we'd all agree a properly used kinetic rope is safer than using a tow-strap as a kinetic rope!


I would always use my brand spanking new rope in this way, first use it a tow rope by taking out the slack and slowly using the tug to pull out the stuck. If that didn't work but came close, I would add a very small bit of slack and accelerate to a low speed for a gentle "pop". If that didn't work I would increase the slack a small bit and accelerate to the same low speed for a slightly larger "pop". If that didn't work I might decide to increase the speed reached. If done this way you can slowly and accurately add more force until you reach the amount needed to free the stuck without adding more energy to the system.

This is the safest way to use a KERR. But still, how do you know when to stop adding more force? Or how much force you are adding? The energy in the rope is not only related to your run-up-speed, but how much throttle you apply while it is stretching. (If your run-up speed is the same, then extra slack makes no difference, btw. Then all that counts is how much power you apply as you stretch the rope).


The energy of the moving tug is stored in the rope but it will soon reach a point where it is constant and not increasing as it would if the tug didn't slow down. The tug will eventually stop if the other vehicle is not freed resulting in no further increase of energy generated. It's just stored in the rope. Now lets say that amount of stored energy is just one pound over the resistance acted upon the stuck vehicle then that energy will slowly move the stuck vehicle. It won't do it with an abrupt release of energy but a slow steady and degreasing release. That is why I said what I said. Again, I may be wrong but all I am trying to do is try explain what I know happened. I really don't see how I missed it but I really want to be corrected if I did as my safety is involved.

The energy stored in the KERR by the tug continues to increase as long as the tug continues to move forwards. And yes, if that energy is more than that required to free the stuck vehicle, then it will move it. And if that energy is not enough to move the vehicle, then it will eventually break something.

I am pretty sure we both understand the mechanism here - the part I think you are missing is that there is no reasonable way to predict (and therefore control) the maximum force exerted by a KERR.

The point both Muskyman and I are making is that the forces involved in a KERR recovery are far higher and less predictable than other methods and that's a two-edged sword. It can make a serious "stuck" appear childishly simple to extract, under what seems like perfect control, but in fact you are dealing with unbelievable forces. As long as you recognize that, that's half the battle won. My specific point was that when you have a reasonable alternative (winching, say), that should be your first approach because it involves predictable maximum forces.
 

emmodg

Adventurer
"The point both Muskyman and I are making is that the forces involved in a KERR recovery are far higher and less predictable than other methods and that's a two-edged sword. It can make a serious "stuck" appear childishly simple to extract, under what seems like perfect control, but in fact you are dealing with unbelievable forces. As long as you recognize that, that's half the battle won. My specific point was that when you have a reasonable alternative (winching, say), that should be your first approach because it involves predictable maximum forces."

Bam! Well said!
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
Look pal, you know good and well I am not advocating the actions in that video.

In fairness, Thom, you know that that's just an absurd misuse of a Kinetic rope!

But having said that, it goes back to what I said - a KERR can make a really serious recovery look childishly simple. The idiots in the video are probably applying momentary pulling forces well in excess of 20 tons without even giving it a second thought. Any miscalculation or incompetence with a KERR is likely to be much more serious than a similar miscalculation or incompetence with some other tecnique.
 

muskyman

Explorer
Look pal, you know good and well I am not advocating the actions in that video. You continue to read what you want in my statements and refuse to look at it with an open mind. I asked you several times to correct my statements if they are wrong and all you can muster up is a bunch of inbred brits in deep mud driving like morons. I am no longer eating from your troll pie.

I am sorry if you feel like I am trolling here, that is not what I am trying to do.

You asked me to correct your statements so in my post #71 I clearly highlighted in blue a mis-statement you made and corrected it in a respectful way.

The link to the horrible recovery on youtube was in no way aimed at you, it was a comical situation related to this thread that I thought would add a few chuckles to the thread.

Michael hit it on the head in his last post and what I have been trying to get you to see and understand. I dont think that Kerr are horrible deadly tools that should be banned but I do think that people need to understand the risks so that they can make better decisions and prevent injuries and damage to vehichles.
 

muskyman

Explorer
In fairness, Thom, you know that that's just an absurd misuse of a Kinetic rope!

But having said that, it goes back to what I said - a KERR can make a really serious recovery look childishly simple. The idiots in the video are probably applying momentary pulling forces well in excess of 20 tons without even giving it a second thought. Any miscalculation or incompetence with a KERR is likely to be much more serious than a similar miscalculation or incompetence with some other tecnique.

Michael I posted that in a different post so that 7 wt would not think it was aimed at him. It was not.

I just thought people would get a laugh out of all the stupid mistakes those guys made.

did you catch the fact he almost tore his hitch off at the end?
 

UK4X4

Expedition Leader
Just thinking on the issue of ripped off recovery points and the projectile issue..

and if its common

how could you limit the possible damage ?

and give you guys some positive things to think on

In my field of work airlines commonly have a whipstop fitted to the ends of the hoses.

due to the common point of failure being the union or seperation of the hose at the union.

Its a short length of wire rope that attaches behind the union on both sides.

Now think on how you could go about adding a "safety" line to the kinetic rope/strap

dr929.jpg


Homework answers will be expected in the morning !
 

7wt

Expedition Leader
(If your run-up speed is the same, then extra slack makes no difference, btw. Then all that counts is how much power you apply as you stretch the rope).
The slack does matter. Once there is tension in the rope, there is force acting on both vehicles correct? So the tug will have a reward force component that is impeding it's acceleration which will limit how much speed and therefor energy can be generated correct? Slack in the line will allow the tug to accelerate without the reward force if only for a little bit allowing it to reach a higher speed at a faster rate. This will generate more force than the same accelerated pull without slack in the line. I understand what you are saying about not being able to accurately judge the force generated, I have all along but I hold to my statements that you can slowly work up the force applied in a safe manner. There is nothing stating that the recovery rope can't be used as a tug line. This would be the case with a slow acceleration with all the slack taken up as the rope would stretch very little. All I am trying to do is explain that the rope can be used safely, I have done it. To eliminate one item in your bag of tricks because of a couple of Youtube videos is, well, limiting. I would rather carry various sorts of recovery items along with the knowledge on how to use them safely. No one tool is best in all situations. But what ever, I don't sell the things so I don't have a dog in the fight.
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
The slack does matter.

If that didn't work I would increase the slack a small bit and accelerate to the same low speed for a slightly larger "pop".
What I meant about extra slack was in response to your older post, above: If you have 2m of slack, and you use it to accelerate to speed X, and on the next run, you leave 4m of slack, and still only accelerate to speed X, then the forces generated will be the same. The purpose of more slack is to go faster, and gather more kinetic energy.

However, your latest post clarifies your position on this, and we seem, in fact, to agree.


To eliminate one item in your bag of tricks because of a couple of Youtube videos is, well, limiting. I would rather carry various sorts of recovery items along with the knowledge on how to use them safely. No one tool is best in all situations.
All of us in this discussion have acknowledged that a KERR is a great bit of kit to have in our bag! Just some of us maintain that a KERR is inherently more dangerous than other methods of recovery (for reasons explained), so we would most often choose another method in preference.
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
Now think on how you could go about adding a "safety" line to the kinetic rope/strap

dr929.jpg


Homework answers will be expected in the morning !

Looking at the scenario in the You-tube video that muskyman posted, I think the best use for your safety-line would be to tether all those guys to a tree far away! :)

More seriously, tethering is worth thinking about, especially if there are suspect components. I've seen chain being used with a thin rope slackly woven through the links and tied to something secure at both ends, the idea being that if the chain breaks, it will only flail within the limits of the rope. A similar idea to your safety line.
 

Scott Brady

Founder
While tethering may appear worth the effort, better effort would be applied on fitting proper recovery points and getting some practice and training in the field.

The KERR is just one tool of many for recovering a stuck vehicle. As many of the images show, the KERR is often used in military scenarios, primarily because of the efficiency of the operation (field expediency obviously being a factor in a military application).

While one of the posts above indicate otherwise, there are straps that also achieve nearly the same stretch (in the 25-30%), so the evaluation of product selected is based on the amount of stretch you want from the kinetic recovery rope or strap.
 

JamesDowning

Explorer
I have never understood the stretch % units.

Since straps are essentially like springs, shouldn't the units be in load/stretch... such as a spring constant?

What is the stretch % actually a measure of? Anyone have any insight?
 

7wt

Expedition Leader
I have never understood the stretch % units.

Since straps are essentially like springs, shouldn't the units be in load/stretch... such as a spring constant?

What is the stretch % actually a measure of? Anyone have any insight?

Guessing? I would say it's a %in length that it stretches.
 

emmodg

Adventurer
Guessing? I would say it's a %in length that it stretches.

It's the "maximum effective" percentage increase in length due to elastic stretch. (Straps and ropes aren't really proof-tested like chain... Some manufacturers taught "true" stretch percentages...)
 

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