Wyowanderer
Explorer
Well said.
Chinese Air Locker
- Thread starter sross
- Start date
Well said.
4xdog
Explorer
My keyboard is made in the USA, by Unicomp in Lexington, Kentucky. A high quality, fairly priced product with buckling spring technology I love by a good US maker.
My iPhone and iPad, on the other hand are made by Foxconn in Shenzhen, China. I *don't* have a choice of a US maker here, and although I like the products, I can't say I'm proud to be supporting Foxconn. I'm not taking money out of a US suppliers sales by buying their products, and at least a US maker gets some of the money from the final sale. Apple has taken care of me OK whenever I've asked for something.
Given a choice, I will support companies with business ethics, quality management, engineering practices, and customer service values that I like. Very often, for a US maker to have survived globalization, they'll have all these and more, and will always get first consideration from me.
My main issue with China is the "ya never know..." factor, not China per se. I've travelled to China many, many times. Folks who call it "communist China" may be technically right -- there's certainly a central government with questionable people treatment issues-- but I have *never* seen a place where so many people are hustling so hard to make a buck. This in itself is the root of the "ya never know..." factor. Capitalism and and free markets run amok, to a greater degree than most of us realize.
My iPhone and iPad, on the other hand are made by Foxconn in Shenzhen, China. I *don't* have a choice of a US maker here, and although I like the products, I can't say I'm proud to be supporting Foxconn. I'm not taking money out of a US suppliers sales by buying their products, and at least a US maker gets some of the money from the final sale. Apple has taken care of me OK whenever I've asked for something.
Given a choice, I will support companies with business ethics, quality management, engineering practices, and customer service values that I like. Very often, for a US maker to have survived globalization, they'll have all these and more, and will always get first consideration from me.
My main issue with China is the "ya never know..." factor, not China per se. I've travelled to China many, many times. Folks who call it "communist China" may be technically right -- there's certainly a central government with questionable people treatment issues-- but I have *never* seen a place where so many people are hustling so hard to make a buck. This in itself is the root of the "ya never know..." factor. Capitalism and and free markets run amok, to a greater degree than most of us realize.
Last edited:
Scott Brady
Founder
I am past "Buy USA" and choose to buy quality first. However, I would NEVER buy something that is a direct knock-off and reverse engineered product. That Chinese air locker is shameful IMHO.
Having said that, it is the consumer that facilitates this type of intelectual property drain. If no one bought it than they would be forced to innovate and act ethically.
Such is life in the age of cheap and easy. . .
Having said that, it is the consumer that facilitates this type of intelectual property drain. If no one bought it than they would be forced to innovate and act ethically.
Such is life in the age of cheap and easy. . .
xtatik
Explorer
I agree with what you're saying for the most part. I used to think this way, and all one has to do is visit Wallyworld or Home Dumpot to see that most don't care. In fact, there was a time when I held contempt for many American made THINGS, either because I thought the quality had diminished or was being built with union labor. Now, I'm beyond that and realizing/feeling we need a more nationalised view of consumerism. Our competing nations certainly do this, and I don't know why we've abandoned the idea. Our products are still being hammered with taxes and tariffs as soon as they are alongside their docks. As soon as it's off the boat there, they knock-off any innovative aspect of it, pay a pittance to reproduce it, then ship it over here to be sold at a fraction of the price. For us, that puts people out of work or reduces wages here and then forces people to become more dependent on the cheaper produced product that adversely impacted their life in the first place.......and so continues the cycle. I'm amazed at how we disconnect ourselves from this.
TwoTrack
Buy Once, Cry Once
Two words that don't go together.
If it was cheap it probably wasn't easy. And if it was, you're not done yet.
If it was easy, you probably paid good money for it.
Most things that fall in this catagory, you wouldn't even know and I am sure you have bought or used many of them. Reverse engineering is a VERY common practice, its just that most make enough changes to keep it looking different.
Bennyhana
Adventurer
Even our movies aren't safe from chinese copies. http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thecu...s-awfully-similar-to-top-gun#mwpphu-container
BIGdaddy
Expedition Leader
Such a tough subject. I don't think there any absolutes to any of this. For example, My XD9 pistol is made in Croatia by dedicated factory workers who have a lot of investment in what they do. I could have chosen an american made product, but honestly I didn't like any of them.
If there was a chinese made gun that I liked, I'd probably buy that one, too. If it closely resembled an XD9 for 80% of the cost, I'd consider it, for sure. I don't have the luxury of buying the highest quality "Everything" like some of you. I'm a big boy, though, and I would certainly question where they made that 20% cut. Materials? Quality Control? Slave Labor? Or could it be, they have a smaller profit margin so they can simply bring their product to market?
Doesn't ultimately matter to me where something's made. We live in a global economy. It's more about return for the little money I have to spend on such purchases. If it needs to work 100%, every time, for 20 years. I'm not likely going to buy it from a place like walmart.
Then again, my Korean-made, Walmart special Flat panel that we've had for about 5 years is doing just fine.
hmmm...
-B
If there was a chinese made gun that I liked, I'd probably buy that one, too. If it closely resembled an XD9 for 80% of the cost, I'd consider it, for sure. I don't have the luxury of buying the highest quality "Everything" like some of you. I'm a big boy, though, and I would certainly question where they made that 20% cut. Materials? Quality Control? Slave Labor? Or could it be, they have a smaller profit margin so they can simply bring their product to market?
Doesn't ultimately matter to me where something's made. We live in a global economy. It's more about return for the little money I have to spend on such purchases. If it needs to work 100%, every time, for 20 years. I'm not likely going to buy it from a place like walmart.
Then again, my Korean-made, Walmart special Flat panel that we've had for about 5 years is doing just fine.
hmmm...
-B
Last edited:
Scott Brady
Founder
Not easy for the consumer, easy for the manufacture.
Make it cheap and steal someone else's IP to make it easy to design/engineer.
ISO does not guarantee product quality. ISO only controls documentations. You can make junk all day long with an ISO cert. as long as it's well documented that you are making junk.
I worked in a similar industry as you not too long ago, and we had the same problem you describe here, but the steel was made in the US.
I used to be loyal local manufacturing, cared about IP, bought the best products, etc.... until those companies damaged that loyalty by their actions (warranties, customer support, etc.). I've got plenty of expensive, name-brand, not-made-in-China equipment that does not work as advertised, and the manufacturers will do nothing about it. Now I look out for #1. If something is a good value to me, I buy it.
4Rescue
Expedition Leader
I agree it's not cool that they ripped off the ARB, but whoever said that because it's Chinese it's "Junk Steel" is kind of ignorant... YES China has cheap foundries, but they do also make alot of the HSS used in cars around the world and can certainly make a quality product when the market calls for it. Do they make junk as well: yes, certainly, but they're such a HUGE country with SO many different businesses that they DO have the ability to crank out quality stuff.
Again, as Scott said quite well, reverse engineering and stealing tech is shamefull, for that reason I don't think I'd be happy using their product.
Cheers
Dave
Again, as Scott said quite well, reverse engineering and stealing tech is shamefull, for that reason I don't think I'd be happy using their product.
Cheers
Dave
ratkin
Adventurer
That is absolutely correct. ISO 9001 registration only shows that you have the capability of documenting what you do and that you do it in the fashion that your procedures say you will. ISO 9001:1994 at least had some decent rigidity built into it, but when they opened it wide up to accommodate service industries under ISO 9001:2000, it became much more subjective. Your local Motel 6 could be ISO 9001 registered.
xtatik
Explorer
This is the point I was making earlier. You're not getting the return for the "little money" you have to spend. Buying the foreign made product is why you have "little to spend".
Countries cannot make wealth without manufacturing things. If you don't believe it, study the current Chinese economy, or ours of 30 to 80 years ago. Beginning 30 years ago, talks and actions towards free trade and globalization have seen us shipping our jobs and wages offshore. We are all seeing our wealth (jobs and wages) disappear because we haven't connected the dots. We continue to think there is value in these foreign products when in fact, they are also lowering our incomes. Indirectly, every time you buy a foreign made product, you're giving yourself a paycut. It's a death by a thousand tiny cuts. We're addicted and stuck in a loop that will see our demise unless we kick the addiction and force the issue. In order to maintain our way of life, we'll either stay afloat by buying currently made American products, demanding American-made products or by placing tariffs on foreign made products that will allow for competitively made American products. It's either this, or we'll need to get accustomed to making equivalent Chinese wages. Which would you choose?
