Anybody running fox 2.5 with longer coil?

[Suicyco]

Funny thing is i feel like it rode better with the bilsteins set at 1.75 from previous owner lol. But im never satisfied so who knows. Also went from 265/75/16 to 255/85/16 so that probably has something to do with it. Ill post if i end up doing anything @DaveInDenver <~ not sure if thats how you mention someone or maybe i have to quote you

 

[DaveInDenver]

Have you had your FOX out on washboard or that sort of thing? That's where it really opens up, just floats where the stock suspension would be overwhelmed. Not sure how Bilsteins compare but FOX/Icon/King aren't supposed to be supple necessarily but when you get in the right element it works extremely well. BTW, I run 235/85R16 KO2, so not a lot different, stiff, heavy tire.

 

[Suicyco]

Have you had your FOX out on washboard or that sort of thing? That's where it really opens up, just floats where the stock suspension would be overwhelmed. Not sure how Bilsteins compare but FOX/Icon/King aren't supposed to be supple necessarily but when you get in the right element it works extremely well. BTW, I run 235/85R16 KO2, so not a lot different, stiff, heavy tire.

Oh definitely i was just talking **** lol. And I've been working so much and bed is full of tools so frustrated! Yea was kinda scared to make the investment on the skinnier tire but found some 285/75/16s on Craigslist and they were super wide. Also my 8.5 wheels seem to widen the 255's a bit

 

[DaVikes]

This has been a great discussion! I'm looking at the Bilstein 6112, which come with a 600 lb spring, which is either too light or too short to hold my ARB and winch up in the air. I'm also aiming at 2" or 2.25" lift. So Dave, just to confirm, you would go to a longer spring at the 600 lb rate? Rather than a higher rated spring?

 

[rruff]

On the Tundras the 6112 springs are a non standard diameter. And they are 600 lb too, same as the TRD Pros. Very good shock for the money IMO, but coil swapping isn't possible AFAIK. Maybe Tacomas are different.

Just as a side note, the OME struts (non adjustable) for the Tundra are available with 3 different springs. They are all 740 lb, just the length is different. So they apparently think longer springs of the same rate are the way to go, rather than changing the rate. Maybe they figure the shock valving would need to be altered if the rate was changed. Anyway, those are stiff springs compared to TRD Pro, Bilstein 6112, and Kings which all come in at 600 lb. The stock Tundra coils are 680-700 lb.

I've heard several people say that 600 lb springs on a Tundra do not like to carry extra weight. 700 lb is better then, especially if you offroad.

 

[DaveInDenver]

This has been a great discussion! I'm looking at the Bilstein 6112, which come with a 600 lb spring, which is either too light or too short to hold my ARB and winch up in the air. I'm also aiming at 2" or 2.25" lift. So Dave, just to confirm, you would go to a longer spring at the 600 lb rate? Rather than a higher rated spring?

With an ARB and winch I think you'd be happier with 650 lb spring regardless of length.

My comment is that with /just/ the bumper my original FOX coil overs with 600#/13" springs had a darn nice ride around town. It seemed to me that a little more weight over the front made the ride soften up a bit. They can be a little harsh (partially that's valving). I didn't lose much static height going from the stock bumper to the ARB bull bar, 1/4" maybe, so it's the dynamics.

It was idle rambling aloud that if I was not adding a winch then I might have considered a 600 lb spring that was an inch longer and the length would just be for insurance to prevent binding.

What you should do is stack two 7" coils to make a progressive 625 lb/in. Or a 6" and 8" to make a 633.333333 lb/in. That would be ideal.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Just as a side note, the OME struts (non adjustable) for the Tundra are available with 3 different springs. They are all 740 lb, just the length is different. So they apparently think longer springs of the same rate are the way to go, rather than changing the rate. Maybe they figure the shock valving would need to be altered if the rate was changed. Anyway, those are stiff springs compared to TRD Pro, Bilstein 6112, and Kings which all come in at 600 lb. The stock Tundra coils are 680-700 lb.

This is the same with Tacoma.

For 2nd gen using OME or Bilstein shocks:
OME 883: Approx lift height = 1"&#8203;
OME 884: Approx lift height = 2"
OME 885: Approx lift height = 2.5"
OME 886: Approx lift height w/ 200+lbs of added weight = 2.5"
OME 887: Approx lift height = 3"

OME 883: 375mm in height, 590 pound spring rate&#8203;
OME 884: 390mm in height 590 pound spring rate (stock truck lift)
OME 885: 395mm in height 590 pound spring rate (with bumper)
OME 886: 402mm in height 660 pound spring rate (with bumper and winch)
OME 887: 400mm in height 590 pound spring rate
&#8203;&#8203;OME 888: 405 mm in height 590 pound spring rate&#8203;

Your point about matching spring rate to shock valving is good, too. OME does testing to match typical configurations and I think they do a good job. FOX/Icon/King/Toytec/etc also have standard configurations that they build around.

Stock 2nd gen Tacoma coils are around 500 lb/in, depending on options. The TRD Offroad springs I had I believe were either 520 or 540 (I forget) progressive and 14" long if memory serves.

I've heard several people say that 600 lb springs on a Tundra do not like to carry extra weight. 700 lb is better then, especially if you offroad.

Some people are going to 700 lb/in coils on the Tacoma and that to me just seems excessive. If you're carrying that much weight you need to step up to a Tundra or domestic full size. Even the 650 is I think pushing it. For as big as the Tacoma has grown it's still a small truck capacity-wise. GVWR is 5350 for my truck, so I can't imagine having it so overloaded to need 700 in front. If I start to droop these 650 I'm going to have a serious discussion with the truck about weight loss.

Icon recommends a minimum of 200 additional pounds over stock before even considering 700 lb/in springs (see Tacoma World thread I linked earlier) and even then they try and dissuade from them.

 

[Anathollo]

This is the same with Tacoma.

Some people are going to 700 lb/in coils on the Tacoma and that to me just seems excessive. If you're carrying that much weight you need to step up to a Tundra or domestic full size. Even the 650 is I think pushing it. For as big as the Tacoma has grown it's still a small truck capacity-wise. GVWR is 5350 for my truck, so I can't imagine having it so overloaded to need 700 in front. If I start to droop these 650 I'm going to have a serious discussion with the truck about weight loss.

It's not excessive. There are plenty of guys out there running 700# coils. There are even guys running 750# coils... I'm running 700# coils on my Tacoma with front bumper, winch, full skid plates, dual batteries, etc...and the 700# coils aren't enough as I still have to run a lot of preload to get the desired lift height. I'm running 13" 700# coils now and on my next set I'm going to bump it up to 14" or 16" coils for less preload. I'm still on the fence about going with a 750# coil or not.

You have to think about the weight of your truck wearing out the springs over time as well. Also, when you're loaded down with gear for a trip, you need to take all that weight into account as well when you're bouncing around on rocks or offroad. I've already worn out a set of OME 886's, Eibach 600# and 650# springs so I know from experience. Adjusting coilovers is one of the things I hate most on this planet by this point

Rule of thumb:
13" 600# coils are fine for bone stock trucks.
13-14" 650# coils are needed for front bumper and winch (synthetic winch line is recommended)
14"+ 700# for full armor

 

[DaveInDenver]

It's not excessive. There are plenty of guys out there running 700# coils-do your research. There are even guys running 750# coils... I'm running 700# coils on my Tacoma with front bumper, winch, full skid plates, dual batteries, etc...and the 700# coils aren't enough as I still have to run a lot of preload to get the desired lift height. I'm running 13" 700# coils now and on my next set I'm going to bump it up to 14" or 16" coils for less preload. I'm still on the fence about going with a 750# coil or not.

I didn't say people weren't doing it, I'm saying that for a truck with a GVWR of 5,300 lbs and a payload of 1,000 that building it to that point that 700 lb/in coils or more in front are necessary means you're exceeding the truck's envelope. What does your truck weigh?

For comparison, a often usedl front spring from an older F250, like a Moog CC844, is a 630 lb/in rated spring. That's used to lift F150 front ends and in the 3/4 ton truck was for holding up a plow.

 

[rruff]

For comparison, a often usedl front spring from an older F250, like a Moog CC844, is a 630 lb/in rated spring. That's used to lift F150 front ends and in the 3/4 ton truck was for holding up a plow.

The geometry can vary substantially though, so comparing spring rates on different trucks doesn't always make sense. Different lever arms will change the force on the spring relative to the weight on the wheels.

If the stock Tacoma really has a 500 lb rate, bumping up to 700 lb does seem excessive though.

 

[Anathollo]

I didn't say people weren't doing it, I'm saying that for a truck with a GVWR of 5,300 lbs and a payload of 1,000 that building it to that point that 700 lb/in coils or more in front are necessary means you're exceeding the truck's envelope. What does your truck weigh?

For comparison, a often usedl front spring from an older F250, like a Moog CC844, is a 630 lb/in rated spring. That's used to lift F150 front ends and in the 3/4 ton truck was for holding up a plow.

Just realized the "do your research" in my post above came off as a bit harsh which wasn't my intention. I have edited it out.

I don't know what my truck weighs but since I have a DCLB with full armor, tires, RTT, etc... it's definitely not light.

In terms of the "trucks envelope", that's kinda vague. Are you saying it's exceeding the coil bucket's strength capacity?

With my 886's, they lasted about a year before wearing out. My 600# Eibach's on my Donahoe (Pre-Icon) non resi shocks lasted 6 months before needing to be replaced. My 650# Eibach held up great for a year until I got a front bumper and winch. I then went with a 13" 700# Icon coil with my new Icon Omega coilovers which is what I'm currently running now. But I have too much preload on my coilovers as is and will be swapping the coils after tax month next year.

 

[DaveInDenver]

The geometry can vary substantially though, so comparing spring rates on different trucks doesn't always make sense. Different lever arms will change the force on the spring relative to the weight on the wheels.

Very good point, I'll admit my statement doesn't hold much merit for those reasons. Also the long travel Taco guys run coils in the 500 to 600 lb/in rate and those arms are longer so, again, fair point that it's not apples-to-apples.

If the stock Tacoma really has a 500 lb rate, bumping up to 700 lb does seem excessive though.

I've read that the 2nd gen TRD OR progressive coils are 540 lb/in but that's Internet wisdom. I don't know that for an indisputable fact and it's easily just a continually parroted number.

https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/spring-rate-of-the-front-coils.121600/#post-2348148
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/stock-spring-rate-s.72330/#post-1368549

Toytec measured the 3rd gen coils at 717 lb/in and make reference to the 2nd gen being 500 lb/in.

https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads...2016-tacoma-presented-by-toytec-lifts.395798/

 

[DaveInDenver]

Just realized the "do your research" in my post above came off as a bit harsh which wasn't my intention. I have edited it out.

I don't know what my truck weighs but since I have a DCLB with full armor, tires, RTT, etc... it's definitely not light.

In terms of the "trucks envelope", that's kinda vague. Are you saying it's exceeding the coil bucket's strength capacity?

With my 886's, they lasted about a year before wearing out. My 600# Eibach's on my Donahoe (Pre-Icon) non resi shocks lasted 6 months before needing to be replaced. My 650# Eibach held up great for a year until I got a front bumper and winch. I then went with a 13" 700# Icon coil with my new Icon Omega coilovers which is what I'm currently running now. But I have too much preload on my coilovers as is and will be swapping the coils after tax month next year.

Yes, GVWR on the Tacoma isn't very high. I know people exceed the ratings all the time and it's very difficult not to.

My previous truck was a 1991 XtraCab and it had a very similar GVWR but the curb weight was something like 400 lbs less. So the effective payload was something like 1,600 lbs. I didn't have to really worry about overloading the truck to the point of frame issues or being unable to brake and handle. It was also a 22R-E which really was the limiting factor. You could safely load the thing without worrying about failure because if you did exceed the payload it wasn't going to move anyway.

With this Tacoma I have a GVWR on the plate of 5,350 lbs and that leaves me an effective payload of 1,385 lbs. So with a passenger, full tank of fuel, bolt-on sliders and fiberglass topper I'm left with about 620 lbs of payload. I added an ARB bumper, second battery and eventually a winch, this consumes about 185 lbs, so I'm down to 437 lbs of payload. With a simple rear bumper, 10 gallons of water, tools, recovery gear, Hi-Lift, shovel I'm looking at 145 lbs. That's going to be the fridge, food, clothes, a couple of bicycles. That's it. No capacity left for heavy skid plates, extra fuel, swing outs, RTT, etc.

I'm not saying it's not possible to put on 700 lb coils and OME EL091 Hilux rear springs. It might let us bolt on all the farkle and carry everything but the truck is overweight by 500 lbs. What that means I think ultimately is that it's going to wear out faster (as you're finding with coils) and the frames on the Tacoma are already fairly undersized IMHO. I'm also a throw-back in that I bought this truck expecting to keep it 25 years like that last one, which is probably no longer realistic.

My argument is that modifications need to be done with all the information available. You guys doing 700 lb coils I believe have gone pretty far overweight and should be considering a Tundra, F-series, Silverado, etc. to carry everything. Or if the truck is supposed to be a rock crawler with all the protection then it might not be a good choice for overland travel with all the gear. In the rest of the world the Hilux can do 1,800 lbs and there's the Cruisers for people who want to build out heavily loaded trucks.

I 100% think there's a hole in the Toyota models for a smaller truck capable of doing actual work like this. They used to be more rugged and I think people assume they still are, but I'm not sure that's true. We also don't know since the frames on the things rust out before they get old enough to know. So, yeah, things like a coil buckets, lower arms, spring hangers might start to fatigue. The back half of the frames on our trucks just seems so wimpy.

 

[Anathollo]

1. Yes, GVWR on the Tacoma isn't very high. I know people exceed the ratings all the time and it's very difficult not to.

2. My previous truck was a 1991 XtraCab and it had a very similar GVWR but the curb weight was something like 400 lbs less. So the effective payload was something like 1,600 lbs. I didn't have to really worry about overloading the truck to the point of frame issues or being unable to brake and handle. It was also a 22R-E which really was the limiting factor. You could safely load the thing without worrying about failure because if you did exceed the payload it wasn't going to move anyway.

3. With this Tacoma I have a GVWR on the plate of 5,350 lbs and that leaves me an effective payload of 1,385 lbs. So with a passenger, full tank of fuel, bolt-on sliders and fiberglass topper I'm left with about 620 lbs of payload. I added an ARB bumper, second battery and eventually a winch, this consumes about 185 lbs, so I'm down to 437 lbs of payload. With a simple rear bumper, 10 gallons of water, tools, recovery gear, Hi-Lift, shovel I'm looking at 145 lbs. That's going to be the fridge, food, clothes, a couple of bicycles. That's it. No capacity left for heavy skid plates, extra fuel, swing outs, RTT, etc.

4. I'm not saying it's not possible to put on 700 lb coils and OME EL091 Hilux rear springs. It might let us bolt on all the farkle and carry everything but the truck is overweight by 500 lbs. What that means I think ultimately is that it's going to wear out faster (as you're finding with coils) and the frames on the Tacoma are already fairly undersized IMHO. I'm also a throw-back in that I bought this truck expecting to keep it 25 years like that last one, which is probably no longer realistic.

5. My argument is that modifications need to be done with all the information available. You guys doing 700 lb coils I believe have gone pretty far overweight and should be considering a Tundra, F-series, Silverado, etc. to carry everything. Or if the truck is supposed to be a rock crawler with all the protection then it might not be a good choice for overland travel with all the gear. In the rest of the world the Hilux can do 1,800 lbs and there's the Cruisers for people who want to build out heavily loaded trucks.

6. I 100% think there's a hole in the Toyota models for a smaller truck capable of doing actual work like this. They used to be more rugged and I think people assume they still are, but I'm not sure that's true. We also don't know since the frames on the things rust out before they get old enough to know. So, yeah, things like a coil buckets, lower arms, spring hangers might start to fatigue. The back half of the frames on our trucks just seems so wimpy.

1. Yeah I've been past that limit since 09'. :sombrero: My Tacoma used to be my construction work truck and hauled tools, trailers, material & workers without any issues. I've got at least 15k miles on my Tacoma towing various trailers.

2. Yeah, I hear you. I used to have a little Ford Ranger and it was anemic as well.

3. Just a tip, instead of adding a second battery, I'd honestly run the biggest size battery that can fit under the hood or behind your back seat and install a small solar panel on a roof rack instead of installing a second battery. If I had known then when I installed mine I would've gone a different route. Upgrade your alternator as well. Also, I'd choose skid plates over bumpers all day. Protecting everything underneath is more important than those crappy plastic bumpers.

4. I see what you're worried about now but honestly you'll be fine. Parts will wear out quicker of course but that's part of this lifestyle. Just accept it. :ylsmoke: If you can't afford to wheel it and break it, don't go offroad (and I know several guys with lifted Tacoma's, F150's and diesel trucks who don't). With the 4.0 V6 and proper gearing, you can accommodate the extra weight when you're on or offroad.

5. If I wanted a full size truck I would've gone that way by now. A lot of the trails I've been down couldn't fit a full size truck and had I owned one, I would've missed out on a lot of great memories. For example, I did "Hey Joe" trail in Moab this past summer and a fullsize truck couldn't fit down it. With full armor, these Tacoma's can tackle quite a bit of rocks and still perform an overland role. I'm still amazed at some of the stuff I've done in it and came out with no damage. I did a 2,000 mile round trip with seven straight days of rock crawling and overlanding. It was incredible trip! Check it out! http://www.toyotaoff-road.com/threads/2016-moab-colorado-pic-thread.1942/

6. That truck will probably never happen. With all the CAFE laws and EPA regulations, truck engines and frames are only going to get smaller or lighter. But honestly I think you're giving yourself gray hairs over nothing about the weight. The frame will hold up to quite a bit of abuse before needing to be worked on. If you're really worried about it, take it to a fab shop and get them to box it in.

 

[DaveInDenver]

But honestly I think you're giving yourself gray hairs over nothing about the weight. The frame will hold up to quite a bit of abuse before needing to be worked on. If you're really worried about it, take it to a fab shop and get them to box it in.

Part of the reason I have this 2008 is that a 2001 I bought was supposed to replace my '91 (on which I put 287K hard won miles) but the frame on it started buckling. I was still below the capacity of that Tacoma since hadn't even put suspension, bumpers or any skid plates on it yet. So, yeah, this 2008 would eventually get a proper frame box before it gets fully outfitted with the WilderNest and everything the '91 carried.

If you look close, over the axle, the frame was starting to get a ripple in it. So I put reinforcement plates on it but ultimately felt it was just too rusty (I wasn't aware of the frame rust issue when I bought it and it did not qualify for replacement since I'd started modifying it) and not really enough different than my '91, so I sold it. Unfortunately the body seams were starting to open on the '91 and the WilderNest was developing fractures from the box sides failing, so I really didn't have much choice but to replace it anyway a couple of years later.



The WilderNest won't go on until I can do the frame work and build a tray for it, which has to wait until I have an aluminum GMAW setup. The 'Nest won't fit on the '08 box super cleanly anyway so I'm taking the opportunity to build something specific to the task. That's why I don't want to destroy this truck prematurely. They really aren't as strong as the old ones. Although I feel the frame on the 2nd gen may have been improved, I don't have any documentation (that's the Professional Engineer in me, when you stamp stuff for a living you make absolutely sure) that proves it can tolerate overloading any more than the 1st gen.

My 2008 did not qualify for rust replacement under the service campaign last year (it's not all that rusty and I beat the heck of the known spots before buying it) but it is 8 years old and I don't really know what it's first 6 years was like. I'm just trying to keep the rust at bay in the mean time and that's not easy. I've wire wheeled just about every weld from the coil buckets back this summer knocking off loose paint and refinishing it. This is what scares me about this Tacoma, though. I'll grind off what little factory paint is there when I weld the inner frame walls, which will open it up to rust even worse. Since 1986 I've gotten a truck about every 10 to 12 years and I'm not flush with cash (which I guess makes me unqualified to drive off highway, right?) so they have to last. I'm hoping this one gets me close to my 60th. By then I honestly doubt I'll want to be crawling around under trucks anymore, so that's probably the time I start considering a turn key Cruiser or full size. If we still have vehicles that we can drive anyway.