Benefits of "low tech" 4WDs for expedition vehicles

[gait]

a small example, and remember I was brought up with simple. Drove the (about to be registered) Canter 100km one day, following day wouldn't start. Turned the key and dashboard warning lights came on, and off, and on ... regularly every half second, accompanied by tick of a relay somewhere.

I naturally assumed it was some sort of diagnostics so I headed for the manual to interpret. Zilch.

After an hour or so of thinking, a few voltage measurements, and a few tests, but nothing conclusive, I got down to basics. Took apart and cleaned all the connections around the batteries. Works fine now.

Just the potential for complicated made it complicated.

 

[AmericaOverland]

This is the perfect thread for someone like me. I like everything to be kept simple. I got the Honda Element community in an uproar when I suggested "mechanizing" an Element by taking out the power windows and retrofitting it with manual window regulators.

I am very stridently against "drive-by-wire," which is the trend in the automotive industry, and the idea behind it is to make the driver into an airline pilot; someone with no knowledge/authority whatsoever on fixing ANYTHING on the vehicle, perhaps even illegal to do so via some future-enacted legislation ("only mechanics certified as body mechanics, powerplant/driveline engineers, and land electronics technicians have the legal authority as vested by the Federal Land Transportation Authority to repair and maintain consumer vehicles"). This would mean if you try to do a cut-and-turn on your axles, change the light bulbs on your vehicle, do an engine swap, alter your gear ratios for off-road driving and get caught doing it, you could be fined and imprisoned for perhaps 10 years or more, hell, throw the keys away! This is what manufacturers want to do. They want to own us with a "p" (as in "pwned").

This is why I want something like a Scout. I currently have a '77 Scout undergoing restoration, and I want to consider another one or an older one (800 with power steering) as a second vehicle to replace my Toyota Corolla which has been falling apart a little faster than I can keep up with at times.

Given that much older cars have parts that are hard to come by, I see nothing wrong with coming up with hardware changes like changing to a boxy riveted-body style (make it easy to change body parts and change the design as needs change over time - oh, you want to add a camper; clip off the rivets holding in the roof and rivet together your camper extension), changing to a more common engine/transmission pattern with better parts availability, etc.

It is time we took driving back from the manufacturers and the government.

Stephanie

 

[shahram]

I'm on the fence about this type of conversation. My computer-laden 80 series is still much, much more reliable than my clunk-and-thunk, carbureted Suzuki Samurai. The Samurai is field-repairable, which I think is fortunate, considering how much it breaks down! Not to mention, I'm not the most handy guy on the trail, so even if the Samurai is field-repairable, one still requires the necessary skills and tools with which to work.

 

[whatcharterboat]

I'm on the fence about this type of conversation. My computer-laden 80 series is still much, much more reliable than my clunk-and-thunk, carbureted Suzuki Samurai. The Samurai is field-repairable, which I think is fortunate, considering how much it breaks down! Not to mention, I'm not the most handy guy on the trail, so even if the Samurai is field-repairable, one still requires the necessary skills and tools with which to work.

Well said mate. You might also need parts to fix your Samuri (we call them "Sierra")as well as the tools. Sometimes you can be lucky enough to temporarily repair an electrical drama by just pulling a fuse or jumping with a piece of wire, swapping a vacuum hose, etc. Sure not always but.......

After an hour or so of thinking, a few voltage measurements, and a few tests, but nothing conclusive, I got down to basics. Took apart and cleaned all the connections around the batteries. Works fine now.

Just the potential for complicated made it complicated.
Yesterday 11:14 PM

Julian, there is a junction box for the main cable connection to the cab on all the FG's, so if you could completely remove the cab and leave the chassis / engine harness in situ. It's located near the front left cab tilt pivot point. They made a better effort to waterproof the box on the new model but that was always the first place to look for electrical dramas (excluding the battery terminals of course). Creek water or even condensate once it gets in tends to be trapped there and corrodes away at the plugs inside.

Regards John.

 

[Life_in_4Lo]

Not to mention carbs (and drum brakes) are not the greatest on steep inclines offroad.

I think the concept of reliability is good but you don't need to be a luddite to enjoy solid reliability.
To a certain extent, electronics are more reliable than mechanical solutions and the 80 series is a good example.
It's really pretty reliable and to the extent of comparing electronics vs. mechanical, the mechanical parts require freq maintanence while the electronics are lifetiime trouble-free.

I think reliability is a by product of good design. So maybe the focus shouldn't be on bare-bones per se but just good 4x4 design.

 

[gait]

Julian, there is a junction box for the main cable connection to the cab on all the FG's, so if you could completely remove the cab and leave the chassis / engine harness in situ. It's located near the front left cab tilt pivot point. They made a better effort to waterproof the box on the new model but that was always the first place to look for electrical dramas (excluding the battery terminals of course). Creek water or even condensate once it gets in tends to be trapped there and corrodes away at the plugs inside.

Regards John.

thanks, I'll have a look. If the connections around the battery needed cleaning there are probably some other connections waiting for some inopportune moment to make their presence felt. The relay that was chattering was next to the starter solenoid which really threw me. After 5 months of construction (from cab chassis to camper) engineering inspection was good, registration next week after adding the really important bits like reflectors and mudguards and mudflaps ... etc., then we get to use it and really find out all the idiosyncracies.

 

[whatcharterboat]

then we get to use it

Yee Haa.

If the connections around the battery needed cleaning there are probably some other connections waiting for some inopportune moment to make their presence felt.

2 CRC tins every truck should carry, (especially the new electronic FG84's and even the 649's to an extent). "CO Cleaner" and "Electro Shield". The "Battery Terminal Protector Spray" is pretty good on connections too if you haven't got Electro Shield. You should see the way they all seal up the electrics on the 84's on Fraser. Just use miles of ol' greasy Denso tape.

 

[M35-ED]

:victory: Sounds like my M-35 6x6 and its easy to work on, you just need bigger tools, It worked for the military for over 50 years.

 

[kerry]

. The relay that was chattering was next to the starter solenoid which really threw me.

I was having intermittent starter clicks/no go. I swapped out the starter with a used one and sent the original to a rebuilder. He declined to rebuild it saying that that particular relay could not be found except from mitsubishi and they were asking $300 for it. Needless to say, I agreed it wasn't worth that price.
Well, this week a guy on Ebay started selling those relays for $25. So if that relay is bad on yours, here you go:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...0351262672&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 

[Lars70]

Old school works for me. The nice thing here in CA is that I can cherry pick "new-think" technologies (my engine is fuel injected) and still fly under the government radar.

 

[ntsqd]

I'm with Lars on cherry-picking newer technologies. I wait for them to prove themselves and then harvest them for my own uses. To me the bravest person is one who takes a brand new vehicle design into the wilderness.

I've developed the opinion that most electronics failures is not the electronics itself. It is the electro-mechanical transition that fails. It is the electrical contacts, the Idle Air Control motor, the Throttle Position Sensor, the Air Flow Meter, etc. It is rare that an Engine Control Unit or Powertrain Control Module itself fails due to internal problems. I'll rue the day that Microsoft decides to go into engine management.......

FWIW a soaking in plain old vinegar works wonders at cleaning corroded contacts. Be sure to flush with plenty of water and dry or you'll be back where you started.

 

[Bandicoot]

Low tech paint jobs

Cleaning the EC after 10000 km and lots of tight bush tracks with close scrub and plenty of scratchy stuff and another benefit of "low tech" becomes clear. The "low tech" simple baked enamel paint job came up brilliantly after getting home and giving it a simple wash (not even a wax). I couldn't help but compare it to some recent SUVs I've had with fancy metallic paint jobs that would have looked decidedly "second hand" after this recent trip.
I remember going up the Canning stock route a few years back and at one there was a new 4WD wagon coming towards us and the owner had literally taped heavy plastic film over the sides in a (completely vain and useless) attempt to stop the scratches. The film was shredding and falling off and the vehicle looked just terrible...bit like when the make-up gets caught in the rain!!

 

[AmericaOverland]

I remember going up the Canning stock route a few years back and at one there was a new 4WD wagon coming towards us and the owner had literally taped heavy plastic film over the sides in a (completely vain and useless) attempt to stop the scratches. The film was shredding and falling off and the vehicle looked just terrible...bit like when the make-up gets caught in the rain!!

Are you sure this person owned the vehicle and not rented it? Maybe he was trying to make sure that his wheeling trip wouldn't be found out and he avoid getting in trouble for off-roading in it.

 

[Lars70]

Are you sure this person owned the vehicle and not rented it? Maybe he was trying to make sure that his wheeling trip wouldn't be found out and he avoid getting in trouble for off-roading in it.

Sorta what my wife did last month with a rented Exploder in Utah after wheeling it near Escalante. Spent a bunch of money at the car wash. Must've worked, they never said anything.

 

[gait]

thanks, I'll have a look. If the connections around the battery needed cleaning there are probably some other connections waiting for some inopportune moment to make their presence felt. The relay that was chattering was next to the starter solenoid which really threw me. After 5 months of construction (from cab chassis to camper) engineering inspection was good, registration next week after adding the really important bits like reflectors and mudguards and mudflaps ... etc., then we get to use it and really find out all the idiosyncracies.

previous owner had sealed that big junction box, pristine inside. It was his second Canter and he did quite a few things to not have the same problems he had with the first one. Forgot the tail lights though - took me a couple of hours to find the corroded earth while connecting lights for number plate. Grrrrr.