Communication options

[Karma]

HI Guy's,
Come on now. You are hurting my feelings. My purpose here is to simply point out the advantages of PLB's for the purpose of saving your life or one of your loved ones. I have no agenda other than that. PLB's certainly have no entertainment value. They are just a plastic brick with zero personality. They require no technical expertise or skill to use them. You can't take any pride of ownership or exercise your years of experience with other means of communications. You cannot use them to pass the time or check on you daughters prom date. They have only one purpose and they do it very well. Namely, to save lives. They are very single purpose.

If you wish to carry on radio communications for the purpose of entertainment then (the ham zealot) by all means use ham or other systems. I have no problem with that. Where my issues come into play is when folks choose other systems IN PLACE of the PLB. Now you are betting your life on a less reliable system. This does not seem wise or desirable. Why would you do that? It makes no sense to me at all.

So, please do not accuse me of attempting to push my beliefs based upon ego or ignoring the basic needs of the traveler. Rather, I wish to focus the conversation on the real issue – rescue - and the best way to accomplish that goal. That's all. If you wish to add to that capability with bells and whistles, go for it. All it costs is space in the vehicle and dollars out of your wallet which is no concern to me.

Sparky

 

[chris snell]

Persistent troll is persistent.

 

[Karma]

HI Chris,
Why are you calling me a toll? I assume you are talking to me. I don't even know what the term means. Sounds negative. Should I be pissed? Or insulted? You could attempt to add something constructive. Could you explain?

Sparky

 

[Mash5]

All right let’s keep it civil. It does not profit anyone to make this personal.

Sparky while I am beginning to disagree with your zeal, I do very much appreciate your ability to keep things civil and even jovial while discussing this. I sincerely apologize if you were in earnest feeling hurt by my comments. From my perception of your mood in prior posts I thought my intention would come across as gentile ribbing. It was not intended as an insult. I appeal to everyone to keep this discussion or even debate from getting personal.

I propose that there should be a thread dedicated to the new 406 PLBs. I am disappointed that this forum had not brought them to my attention before this thread. I would like to see it filled with good discussion of how it works and what it can and can’t do as well as antidotes of its use. I think such a thread would be very valuable and could be a good candidate for a sticky. I will start one myself when I have time if nobody beats me to it. There is a lot of good info here that could be copied over.

 

[cnynrat]

I think the inReach does the same thing a PLB does and more.

You can send an SOS to SAR that includes a lat lon. It doesn't have a homing beacon, but I think that's a holdover to before GPS location was provided with the SOS message.

You can communicate with SAR during the rescue to describe the nature of your emergency, get medical advice, etc.

Plus you can communicate with friends, family, support team members, etc to get assistance in event of non life threatening emergencies.

You can change the batteries yourself. You can test the unit easily before and during your trip.

The two way communication features of the Iridium network ensure an acknowledgement that your messages have been sent successfully.

You can use automatic tracking feature to indicate where to start a search in the event you don't return on time and are unable to initiate an SOS request.

inReach does more, and it also does less. It's certainly true that inReach offers more messaging capabilties compared to a PLB. The ability to send a short text message may be valuable when you have something less than a full on life and death emergency. Need to text your wife and let her know you'll be late for dinner? inReach can handle that, a PLB can not. Want to text a friend to help you deal with a mechanical breakdown? Again, inReach can do that, a PLB can not.

But, imagine this scenario: Suppose through any number of admittedly unlikely but completely possible scenarios you are out on a trip and your inReach subscription has expired, or perhaps through some programming or paperwork foul up inReach merely thinks your subscription has expired. Your buddy rolls his Jeep off a shelf road and is lying unconcious 300' down a steep slope. You push the help button on your inReach device. Will they respond? They will tell you this can never happen, that they have all sorts of safeguards in place to make sure your account never goes inactive without you knowing about it. I don't think they can guarantee with certainty that it won't happen - stuff does get lost in the mail, people move, change email addresses, credit cards expire, and in the end people are involved and so far as I know we are all still fallible. The interesting point to me is they won't simply answer the question "Yes, in a life or death situation we will respond regardless of the status of the account associated with the device." If you had a 406 MHz PLB the USAF would be on the case to alert the local SAR agency and they would respond, no questions asked.

Cell service providers are required by FCC rules to always pass on a 9-1-1 call regardless of whether the account associated with that phone is paid up. Commercial distress alterting services (SPOT, inReach) are not subject to any similar FCC regulations.

So there is a real trade off to be considered here - please don't think the two types of devices are "the same."

The benefits of the commercial distress alerting services are a generally lower up front cost, combined with more advanced messaging capabilities. The downsides are they carry an ongoing subscription fee, there are no service level regulations or guarantees, and there are no design standards for the devices themselves.

Regarding the 406 MHz PLBs, the benefits are there are no ongoing subscription fees, there are FCC regulations governing design standards for the devices themselves and the service that is provided in an emergency. The downsides are they are more costly up front, and they pretty much just offer the one option to call in the calvary. You better have a real emergency on your hands before you push the help button.

I'm not saying don't use a SPOT or an inReach, only that we should understand there are differences to be considered. Clearly, the messaging capabilities they offer are a real benefit, perhaps especially so in emergency situations where the ability to communicate the nature of the emergency to SAR teams can be valuable. Such considerations should probably include an assessment of the risk profile of your typical trip, do you ever travel alone, or always with one or more other vehicles, your level of first aid training, what other comms capabilities to you have, and so on.

 

[bugnout]

My choice would be to carry everything. a PLB for sure, and a Satelite phone or HAM equipment in the appropriate band. The PLB's are very light rugged, long shelf life, no subscriptions. Rent a satelite phone when needed. no ongoing costs.

Seems like cheap insurance if your life really depended on it.

 

[FusoFG]

I'm not saying don't use a SPOT or an inReach, only that we should understand there are differences to be considered. Clearly, the messaging capabilities they offer are a real benefit, perhaps especially so in emergency situations where the ability to communicate the nature of the emergency to SAR teams can be valuable. Such considerations should probably include an assessment of the risk profile of your typical trip, do you ever travel alone, or always with one or more other vehicles, your level of first aid training, what other comms capabilities to you have, and so on.

You should certainly buy and use the device you think is the best for your personal safety. That's what I'm going to do.

But your suggestion that there could be a problem with the inReach, but there can't be any problem with a PLB because there are goverment design standards places a little too much faith in government bureaucracy for my comfort.

There can be something wrong with your PLB battery and it fails in the field while you are initiating that call to save your buddy in the Jeep. But you can't change the batteries.

You might have a PLB without GPS capabilities and while searching for a homing signal in a 2-3 square mile area on the ocean might not be a problem, searching a 2-3 square mile area in the back country where transmission of the homing signal is limited, might take a long time to find you.

I've made several long distance ocean sailing trips and have traveled on land in remote areas and it's unrealistic to believe that somebody is always going to arrive in time to save you in an emergency. If you are far enough off shore or far enough off the beaten path it's going to take a lot of luck for SAR to reach you in time.

It would be better to have the skills, tools, resources and risk avoidance attitude to keep your self safe and effect your own rescue should you need it. That's why I like the two way satellite communication nature of the inReach / IRIDIUM system. It fits my idea of a communications device that I could also use to effect my own rescue in a wide variety situations.

A PLB certainly has its place for many situations, but as for a communication option, except for limited, but very important situations, a PLB isn't much of a communications option. It wouldn't have been reasonable for the OP with the mechanical breakdown that started this thread to use a PLB to get a tow to civilization.

BTW, SPOT doesn't have any 2 way communication capabilities. It can send messages, including the SOS, but without any confirmation that they have been successfuy sent, and it can't receive responses from anyone. Plus, even though I don't plan on using it, inReach offers worldwide communication where SPOT coverage is limited. SPOT was an innovation in low cost satellite tracking / messaging, but I don't think it's design or construction is on the same level as the inReach. And, of course, there are better, more expensive IRIDIUM communication devices than inReach.

YMMV

 

[xtatik]

Being a "Ham Zealot" and having a sailing/cruising background....I would tell you both are great at their respective purposes, and both are mandatory for a major ocean crossing.
But, let's get real for a minute here....that's not what most are doing here, and I can tell you that a PLB is stronger medicine than would be needed in 99% of the situations motorists (on or offroad) might find themselves in 99% of the time. The main reason PLB's haven't been discussed more here is simply because more suitable (useful) options exist. And, don't take this the wrong way cuz PLB's do have a purpose when things go to complete diarrhea.
A HF radio can summon help 100% of the time from anywhere on this continent. I would accept a challenge on this point from anyone at anytime. What's more...I can summon precisely the type and amount of help I need at anytime I might need it.
These discussions pop up here periodically and I have always advocated the upgrade in license class and the use of HF. I have also advocated the use and redundancy afforded with a satphone. Between these two tools, you will have all the capabilities necessary for on-trail communications and the ability to hail help when needed.
IMO, for our purposes (ahem....offroad car glamping)...the purchase of a PLB represents money spent that would serve me in no other way and at no other time but a dire, grave and hopefully singular event. Sorry, but I just feel I get more bang for my buck with an HF/Multiband radio when all the functions it provides me are considered. It far exceeds in usefullness when compared to a PLB.

 

[robgendreau]

I agree with xtatik. PLBs/EPIRBs started out in the marine and aviation world. There you use the radio if possible and if you're going down it's beacon time. The idea is that the beacon helps with location even if everyone is disabled or dead. Not exactly a flat tire scenario.

And I know that even if you have an EPIRB-worthy emergency, radio communication can be essential. Often, very often, SAR can't get to you. Weather, delays, etc, continuing hazard. If you can communicate it makes it easier on them and you. I've been in emergency situations where advice given before the rescue was effectuated was essential to the success of the operation. And even advice like where to land the helicopter is helpful. IMHO just carrying an emergency beacon without more is a bit irresponsible. Frankly I'd want a radio backup just in case I pulled a major no-no like the one Sparky mentioned. It would have been a real bummer if SAR turned out in threatening conditions on a false alarm.

And in addition to the tech equipment it's really helpful to have info on who to contact in the area you're exploring. I wish this were more standardized and easily available, especially for non-critical situations (somewhere between "I'm being eaten by a bear" and "my Facebook status changed"). Out west I've had the misfortune of not being sure which gov't agency's land I was plopped on, and the different offices were hundreds of miles apart. AFAIK there's no central dispatching authority for a place like SE Utah, for example. It can be frustrating when your contact is sporatic and you keep getting told to call someone else.

Rob

 

[Karma]

HI xtatik,
Ah, spoken like zealot! You make my point. Thanks. And you wonder why I would not trust your advice?

Sparky

 

[Mash5]

Yes the admitted ham zealot has now entered the room... some good points in tow. Sparky, Glad to see our PLB zealot has not left the room.

 

[robgendreau]

HI xtatik,
Ah, spoken like zealot! You make my point. Thanks. And you wonder why I would not trust your advice?

Sparky

Are you seriously saying that recreational aviators, sailors and others who almost all use some form of radio are ham "zealots" and therefore untrustworthy? PLBs, radios, EPIRBs and much more technology, as well as SAR techniques, evolved from those fields. Ignoring advice from those with experience is those areas is, well, odd, even if all you're doing is driving around on land somewhere remote.

 

[cnynrat]

To Randy's point, I think a good HF setup + Iridium Satphone is certainly a robust approach that provides a great deal of emergency comms capability. It's also quite a pricey option however, probably somewhere in the range of 2,500 USD or more in initial expense, and then the Satphone obviously carries some pretty high usage costs as well. The HF part of the equation also requires a certain amount of training and practice to develop and maintain proficiency. Still, a very powerful alternative. Those who are ham enthusiasts can perhaps more easily justify that expense as they have an interest in having that equipment for more than just the rare emergency. (I carefully avoided using the z word there. )

Randy, I would challenge your 100% commitment. Very high probability, sure I buy that, but not 100% (is the MTBF of your HF rig infinite?). There is no way to prove it out either way though. Sending you out and having you successfully make 1, 10 or even 100 contacts proves nothing. My concern wouldn't be so much with the ability to make contact with someone, it's the uncertainty about who that person will be and how well equipped they will be to quickly get the right agency involved for your location and emergency. There is a pretty high probability that you may end up contacting someone who is not local to the emergency. It's perhaps a small risk, but I think a PLB would have an advantage in terms of ensuring a rapid response in a real emergency situation. If there is no other difference I would wager the MTBF of a PLB is measurably higher than an HF mobile rig, and in the typical usage scenario the HF rig will accumulate usage hours much faster than a PLB that is rarely used.

Mashurst, you make a valid point about the ability to change the battery in a PLB. I generally don't like devices where I can't change the battery myself, so that's a good item to take into consideration. That said, it's not the government bureaucrat that designed or built the PLB, they just established the design robustness requirements. The companies in this business have been making PLBs and sometimes similar devices for many years, and that is who you are really entrusting more than the government. Also, I would never compare an older PLB without an integrated GPS to a SPOT or inReach device. I'm pretty sure you can not buy a PLB without an integrated GPS anymore, although they did exist early on.

Your points about being prepared with the right skills and emergency gear are also right on target. Much better that you are prepared to deal with the widest range of emergencies possible in a self sufficient manner than having to call for help. It's partially for this reason that I tend to prioritize the requirement that the ultimate fallback when all else fails and we are dealing with a life or death situation should have the highest possible probability of success. I can deal with a lot of non life threatening emergencies without help from the outside. I always have other comms capabilities with me that provide a high probability of success, but not 100% (cell phone and 2M). I am always prepared with extra food and water to spend more time in the backcountry than planned. I have reasonable first aid skills and equipment (Investing time and money in this area would probably have the highest payoff to me). I am always prepared to walk out if need be, even if that takes more than one day. None of that may be convenient, but I'll get through it. But when the chips are down, I want something that will bring help as quickly as possible.

 

[xtatik]

HI xtatik,
Ah, spoken like zealot! You make my point. Thanks. And you wonder why I would not trust your advice?

Sparky

Well Sparky, if anything I've said is untrue, I'm willing to hear you out.
When I was first licensed, I didn't get into it for the fun of it. My family spent a lot of time on a sailboat and radio communications were an important aspect of that type of travel. I've become a zealot over time having seen what does and doesn't work best. I've been a PLB zealot/owner/user, a ham radio zealot/owner/user, a cell phone zealot/owner/user, I've been a satphone zealot/owner/user, and I'm considering SPOT for a possible PCT thru-hike beginning next May......I'll let you know how that experience goes when and if I try it.

Every form of communication discussed here so far has been a form of "radio communication". Like cellphones and satphones, PLB's are nothing more than simple radios. But, moreso than cellphones and satphones, PLB's are made for a single purpose and have been made to be even more push-button simple.........essentially idio..err...operator-proof. I'm sorry, but that is the reality. It also happens to be the essential beauty of these devices. There is no "mysto factor" to this stuff that will make one superior to another in all instances. Each form of radio communication will have it's strengths and pitfalls in different situations. In any one situation, I'm for the one that suits best.
Bottom line is.....Unlike you, I won't spout off in approval or dismissal of any one means until I've tried it. Without experience or credential, why would anyone want to trust your advice regarding anything having to do with radio communications? Who would you consider trustworthy on this subject?

 

[4x4junkie]

Great thread! (it's amazing how narrow-minded some can be lol)

I guess I'll probably wind up being called a zealot here also, but I have to agree with some of the points made earlier.
I have a 2M/UHF and a CB setup in my rig (plus FRS/MURS capability too). I can't say that I've ever really felt too overly concerned about not being able to summon help in the event I'm unable to get a call out via a cell phone... Very rarely have I put my radios in Scan mode and not had one of them stop on someone's conversation within a few minutes time.



I did want to point out a couple items posted earlier though:

Line-of-sight range for 27MHz CB is typically more around 5-20 miles with all but maybe the cheapest Walmart special with shorty antenna, however it's possible to find the band open to atmospheric propagation (usually during the day), in which case hundreds or even thousands of miles are possible if you have a SSB rig (it is a HF band after all). It's certainly more sporadic than on the lower bands though (especially during low solar activity) so you would not want to rely on it solely as a means to call out for help. Being that I already have the CB for road & trail communications it's cool to know it does have that potential capability should I somehow manage to exhaust all my other means.

I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but it it not legal to broadcast on ham radio from a non-ham radio, or vice-versa, per Federal regulations (FCC Part 97). You also cannot use ham radio for commercial purposes. Same goes for FRS / GMRS radios - you cannot use them to broadcast on other services, for any reason.

You can legally use ANY radio gear whatsoever on the amateur bands (provided it complies with emissions standards), just not the other way round (use of a modified ham rig on a non-ham freq (such as on the fire freq the OP mentioned) is technically illegal as per the FCC rules). IOW, you should be able to take a commercial-band radio that is certified for use on the fire freq and also program your favorite local ham repeater (or simplex) freq into it and still be in compliance with the law.


Ok, Carry on