Diesel Question

[super04duty]

I love my '04 6.0l F-350. The only issue Ive had is that it lost an EGR valve at 120k miles, and my turbo vains are sticking a little bit now, giving low boost levels from time to time. But for a truck with 142k miles, and has never so much as left a drop of oil or coolant on the ground, or failed to start, I cant complain.

Only things Ive done are the freebie mods, 4" turbo back exhaust with cat delete, and regular maintenance.

 

[Bella PSD]

If the decision was purely about the most durable Diesel offered by the Big 3 in a pickup truck configuration.... I also believe the nod goes to CUMMINS.

I would like to submit this fact: The Cummins is the ONLY Medium Duty Diesel offered in the pick-up market. Ford & GM only offer Light Duty Diesels at a lower durability rating. (unless you get a Ford F650 or F750, then the Cummins is an Option at additional cost over the PowerStroke)


Cummins only sells Medium-heavy duty or Heavy-heavy duty engines for vehicles in excess of 8600 GVWR.
The engine life-to-overhaul expectations for the Cummins B5.9 series 12 valve mechanical engine is 300,000 miles and 400,000 for the ISB 24 valve electronic engines.


Yes.... I'm a bit biased as well.
Note: 3 things that should never be discussed among people you just met: Religion, Politics & Diesel Engines:coffeedrink:

KEENO

I would like to offer up some facts from a letter to International customers several years ago in response to the “facts” being distorting.

It’s a lot to read but a good read! If your not looking to read all 4 pages of the PDF, here are the highlights on durability, Medium Duty, and warranty for the International and Cummins. Bottom line, the International and Cummins are about the same.

I kind of feel like a myth buster when I report all this to Cummins fans, they feel hurt some how. I just tell them that they are now in good company, International!

Durability
Claim: The ISB has longer life than the T444E. This is an apples and oranges comparison. They use two different baselines of measurement in this claim. They say the ISB has an "average" engine life of 350,000 miles and the T444E has only 200,000 miles "by Navistar's own published information". It has become popular in the diesel engine business to describe engine durability in terms of "Bx life". This is usually described as B10 life; the time, in miles or hours of operation, that 10% of the units in service will require major repair. The remaining 90% will go farther. (Navistar's definition of major repair to an engine is when the repair requires removal of the cylinder head and/or the oil pan.) Other Bx numbers can be used, the next most popular being B50 life, where 50% of the engines will have required repair. This can be looked upon as "average" life to overhaul. For a more complete discussion of Bx life see another Did You Know letter DUK#231. In their comparison Cummins is relating their "average" life, or B50, as 350,000 miles and stating our published life estimate is 200,000 miles. Yes, but that 200,000 number is our B10 life. They're comparing our 10% rebuild time to their 50% rebuild time. The B50 life of the T444E has been found to be 350,000 miles also. Let's use a table to show this more clearly.

__________B 10______B50
T444E____200,000___350,000
ISB______200,000*__350,000

B10=10% need rebuilt
B50=50% need rebuilt

Bottom line here is BOTH IH and ISB will have 50% go well OVER 350,000 miles!

Cummins. ONLY Medium Duty Diesel offered in the pick-up market???
The T444E is offered in two axle trucks. As a single unit straight truck the practical and legal limit for weight carrying capacity is 35,000 Lb. A vehicle with 52,000 to 65,000 Lb. rating would have to be a three axle straight truck or a two-axle tractor with semi- trailer. The truck model that the T444E is offered in is also available in a tractor configuration. When the two-axle tractor is coupled to a tandem axle trailer the GCW could range up to 65,000 Lb. There are no published restrictions in the International system advising against using the T444E as a tractor, an order can be specified with the engine in a tractor and customers have purchased them. So, the bottom line is the T444E is approved, and customer applied, in ratings up to 65,000 Lb.


Warranty comparison (International vs. Cummins)
What better way to back up the numbers, how about a much better warranty?

The Cummins standard warranty for buses is five years, 150,000 miles; the T444E warranty is five years, unlimited miles. The Cummins discussion speaks of an extended warranty of five years, 250,000 miles. Even with that extended policy, at additional cost, they do not match T444E warranty.

I posted the complete PDF to my web site so it can be read here....
http://bellaphotographics.com/FordSuperDutyImages/International Vs Cummins.pdf

As far as tranny, I went with a ZF 6 speed and added a LUK clutch and kevlar pilot bearing. You can hardly go wrong with this set up.

And yes I agree..... Religion, Politics & Diesel Engines........
Louie

 

[Bella PSD]

If I were to order one what options would you suggest? What kind of fuel milage are you guys getting?

As far as new diesel truck. I have not heard to many good stories on the MPG. The emissions are just dragging them down.

I can offer up what my 7.3L gets.

-Around town lightly loaded (8400 LBS)-Summer 18.5-20 -Winter 16.5-18

-Loaded with camper and gear (10,000 lbs)-Summer 16-17.5 running 70 mph(60mph=18.3-18.7)

-Summer no camper taking it very easy (7900 lbs) 21-22.4mpg.

-Pulling a medium size car on car trailer running 70 mph-Summer 15 even -Winter 13.5

Keep in mind all of these #’s are from a F350 4 door Superduty, lifted 4” with 35” tires. Oh, and a 6” roof rack with a 35” tire up top (Giant wind damn) most of the time.

And the MPG numbers above are not a guess or estimates. I fill up all the way to the fill neck, calculate mileage and record every mile and gallon. I have done this for 106,000 miles, or since the truck was new.

Not sure if this helps if your only looking for new.

As far as what options. GMC should have a carpet delete option!! Get it! And I said in the last post that I much prefer the ZF tranny. My wife likes it just fine.

Louie

 

[KEENO]

Great Post Bella PSD...

I appreciated the additional information & perspective both Manufactures have provided & know my reply was biased. This debate is nothing new, as you point out, and probably going on 10 different websites as I type.

It really comes down to this for me (and most of us). These Stats are based a "Severe Duty Cycles" for Diesel trucks that most of us never subject our vehicles to as private owners. So we can all (most) sleep a bit easier...

Another comparison/perspective would be to consider is preferred Engine Architecture: Do you like you cylinders all in a row? (I-6 configuration / Cummins) or a more compact configuration of the V-8 Diesel (PowerStroke/Duramax)? Each has it's strengths & weaknesses and can be researched & debated endlessly on the internet.

I'm a I-6 Guy! So far.... Religiously

KEENO

 

[KEENO]

Comparison

I've seen pictures similar to these floating around for years.... I believe this one to be updated & legit:


KEENO

 

[EdoHart]

Pistons and connecting rods are only part of the equation.

I've seen pictures similar to these floating around for years.... I believe this one to be updated & legit:
View attachment 26927

KEENO

I own a Chevy because I got it for a great price. I think Ford and Dodge both make great trucks. However, while looking at that picture, one must remember that the size of the piston and connecting rod is only part of the equation. Another part is the crank shaft (and there are many more parts to the equation). Both the Ford and Chevy are V8 engines while the Dodge Cummins is an I6. So, to get similar displacement from an I6 as in a V8, you will need a larger diameter piston and/or a longer stroke crankshaft, which will require a longer connecting rod, which in turn may require a longer piston. That's a picture that some marketing person came up with.

 

[explore this]

oh the piston picture... I can't sit on my hands any longer... Let's compare apples and oranges...

Bingo to this:

However, while looking at that picture, one must remember that the size of the piston and connecting rod is only part of the equation. Another part is the crank shaft (and there are many more parts to the equation). Both the Ford and Chevy are V8 engines while the Dodge Cummins is an I6. So, to get similar displacement from an I6 as in a V8, you will need a larger diameter piston and/or a longer stroke crankshaft, which will require a longer connecting rod, which in turn may require a longer piston. That's a picture that some marketing person came up with.

Duramax / Allison 120k miles. Still pulls/hauls like a freight train like day 1! I'll keep the brand bias out and suggest you go to the diesel forums for each respective truck and attempt to wade through the b.s.. They are all good trucks with quirks here and there depending on your application.

 

[Torquey]

As far as large American trucks go, I've owned 2 Fords, 4 GMCs and my current Dodge. I'm not a "Brand Loyal" guy but I have been very happy with my Cummins Diesel with 150k on it.

There is a reason why big-rigs and large boats use inline motors. The inline motor is inherently a "stroker" motor, I particularly like the low-end torque generated by the I-6. The photo of the Cummins rod is very relevant and the crank (not shown) on the Cummins is massive. If you go the route of a Cummins I recommend a good torque converter and a new trans valvebody.


Here's a good article that talks about the different engines from a non-biased perspective.

http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/techarticles/engine/2007_ford_chevy_dodge_diesel_comparision/index.html


Here's a little talk about why diesels work so well:
http://www.bankspower.com/techarticles/show/27-why-diesels-make-so-much-torque

I'm sure you will be happy with any of the 3.

 

[Bella PSD]

I'm sure you will be happy with any of the 3.

That was kind of the point I was trying to make with my post on the T444E and the Cummins being equal. They are both good diesels that are proven to have 90% go over 200,000 miles without major overhaul and 50% will make it to 350,000 miles without failure and keep on going. After getting past that, it comes down to the truck the engine is in. And you really can’t go wrong with GM, Dodge or a Ford SuperDuty with a diesel.

Louie

 

[jonathon]

Okay, another one to toss in..

Is the Ford 6.0 really that big of a terd everyone makes them out to be?

 

[CharlieV]

Okay, another one to toss in..

Is the Ford 6.0 really that big of a terd everyone makes them out to be?

No, and I just wrote a long response as to why, but apparently I wasn't logged in. Oh well, this will be the abridged version. Like Louie said, they are all good trucks. Test drive them all and formulate your opinion based on that. Find a brand with a dealership/service dept. (even if you will be doing your own maintenance) that aims to please. It does seem like reliability has been sacrificed with increased emissions, but if you are buying new they are all about the same.

For what it is worth, no one that spends their free time online BSing about diesels is going to be the authority on them, including myself.

Buy what you like and don't regret it. I have seen all three brands last well into the 300k range (work trucks towing heavy trailers). I compete with one company that has over 400k odd defying miles on a 99 powestroke 7.3, so anything is possible.

 

[Torquey]

Bella -

You have a great looking rig, I was checking out your photo link in your sig. I like your clean setup, I'd drive that PowerStroke any day!



Jason

 

[Overdrive]

Yes, religion, politics, and diesel engines.... so here's my .02

I'm biased towards the Cummins, because I've owned the others and the Cummins has been more reliable.

My early "powerstroke" before they were called such, needed repairs to the glow plug system three times in the first 150,000 miles of it's life, at a total cost of over $1,500. (remember, there are 8 glow plugs and all the associated wiring in this system.)

The Cummins DOES NOT USE GLOWPLUGS. It uses 1 heating element in the air intake, easily accessible on top of the engine. I've never heard of one going out, but I'm not saying they won't. Anyhow, one item to replace and little wiring to go wrong versus the competition with 8 items and more wiring.

Another point...the fewer the cylinders, the fewer moving parts you have. I'll take simple over complicated any day.

Scott

 

[jonathon]

No, and I just wrote a long response as to why, but apparently I wasn't logged in. Oh well, this will be the abridged version. Like Louie said, they are all good trucks. Test drive them all and formulate your opinion based on that. Find a brand with a dealership/service dept. (even if you will be doing your own maintenance) that aims to please. It does seem like reliability has been sacrificed with increased emissions, but if you are buying new they are all about the same.

For what it is worth, no one that spends their free time online BSing about diesels is going to be the authority on them, including myself.

Buy what you like and don't regret it. I have seen all three brands last well into the 300k range (work trucks towing heavy trailers). I compete with one company that has over 400k odd defying miles on a 99 powestroke 7.3, so anything is possible.

The IH 7.3 is pretty bullet proof.. my grandfather has a 91 f250 with 265K on it and still runs like new.

Now, what about the emissions standards? I know that most of them are too new to tell.. but how's, say, the 6.7 Cummins compare to the venerable 5.9?

 

[Overdrive]

Now, what about the emissions standards? I know that most of them are too new to tell.. but how's, say, the 6.7 Cummins compare to the venerable 5.9?

Not sure what you're asking here, because if you buy new you can only get the 6.7. But it is the only one of the big 3 that meets all 50 states regs for the "new" 2010 standard.

If you mean how will the 6.7 hold up to the 5.9, well...the 5.9 was living free and easy due to an efficient design that held up well until the '08 regs kicked in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the Cummins had to use EGR before '08, whereas Ford did...now, they all do.