Engine help needed - 3.5L SOHC 1998 Gen 2.5

PacS14

Adventurer
A day late and a buck too short, but for what is worth what I do when I encounter hoses that seem to have been seized in place I use a pair of (long for those two hoses in particular) needle nose pliers grab them firmly without trying to crush them and wiggle them side to side and they always break loose, then I proceed to pull them off as I keep wiggling them. Works for all rubber hoses in the engine compartment, unless they are brittle and falling apart.
 

nwoods

Expedition Leader
DONE! Mostly.
Rolled up the sleeves today and tackled the project with somewhat better health. Things were groovy until I couldn't figure out how to remove the AC compressor. Up until then, this Montero Sport video had been very helpful: https://youtu.be/vunvsjph9Yk (music is a little off-putting). TyTy13 to the rescue. Told me to pull the drivers side tire off and access the 4 bolts that way. Brilliant, but.... I didn't quite have what I needed to reach those tools. So a quick run to the hardware store to pick up some 10" extensions and universal joints and presto, those bolts came out super easy. Makes all the difference in the world when you can get a tool on it!

I completed the full disassembly right about the time Tyson showed up to lend a hand. Did I mention that it was about 95 degrees today? That was so very cool of him to help! He noticed something that I would never have noticed, that the little metal plate behind the crank shaft gear was independent of the crank shaft gear. We (he)removed the crankshaft gear (something that was not on my list to do) and it came off in pieces! He also noticed that the pin that locks the timing from the crankshaft pulley to the gear had sheared off. This was all bad, and I didn't have any spare parts for this. Did I mention how awesome Tyson is? He goes home and pulls one off a spare motor and brings it back, like its no big deal. Holy crap did that save the day!

Other fun facts of discovery. The center bolt on the back plate was rusted along its full length (Nearest the water pump). The (newish) timing belt was literally shredded in places. The water pump bearings literally were dust, and poured out into a powder. Combine all that with a broken ignition timing plate, lose crankshaft bolt, sheared pulley pin, rashed timing belt covers and so forth, it's amazing nothing serious actually happened. It's also a bit of a mystery exactly what did happen, but it should all be good now, so I'm not too worried about it.

We start getting things back together again, and I run off to borrow a decent torque wrench from a distant neighbor, when I come back, Ty had the power steering and AC pumps back on and was working on the alternator (A shiny new one, not a refurb... Alternator #5 if you are counting). Awesome! We used Ty's homemade crankshaft pulley wedger tool and torqued the bolt to 135 ft lbs. Man, that is a lot! I also put locktite on that baby.

At that point, Ty had about 5 hours into the "quick drop by" in the hot weather, gave me some final tips on flushing the radiator, and he was on his way again.

Resolute in my ambition to finish, I pressed on....and managed to do pretty well! As it sits tonight, its 100% back together, even those bastard little clips for the bottom radiator hoses. I have one extra 14mm bolt...hmmmm....

Tomorrow I will get some distilled water and a flush kit and then I should be good to go. I'm not sure who's more excited, me for having gone through this, or my son who will get his daily driver back!

In summary, the work was actually fun. Also, it totally helps to be able to breathe and not feel like dying! I spent about $550 on OEM parts (not including the $350 water pump!) and then got a timing belt kit at PepBoys for $150 with everything, even gaskets.
shopping


I get to take back all the OEM stuff (except the crank bolt and washer), so all told, I think I'll have spent about $300, including tools and fluids, and a new radiator cap. Dealer wanted $1,200. Honestly, that's a fair value given the work involved, but since I didn't have that kind of money available, doing it at home was a much better and more valuable experience.

Upon reflection, I am surprised I had most of all the tools I needed, though i did need to add to my ratchet kit with longer extensions and universals. I can see getting swivel sockets in my future....
shopping


I made good use of my Christmas-formyself gift:
hqdefault.jpg


But really, most everything was with hand tools and ratchets sets. I used 10mm, 12mm, and 14mm for most everything, and 22mm for the crank bolt. Thank God for gear wrenches. Those little 10mm fan nuts are a total PIA, even with the right tool!
mg6Jeq00vJaNSOImBuZ31Zw.jpg
 
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PacS14

Adventurer
Awesome! Man it feels good when you get help like that! I have helped a couple of people in my spare time. I did the timing belt etc on kine not too long ago and now got to replace that alternator again too (number 3 for me I 1 year) at least I have a lifetime warranty. I think I need to double check the grounds and have my battery tested.
 

nwoods

Expedition Leader
I am now an expert on doing alternators "insitsu". I'm down to about 15 minutes to remove, and 30 minutes for the whole swap.. most of which is removing or reinstalling the skid plates to get to the bottom belt tensioner. A few more minutes for pulling the air filter box out, and the rest is easy.
 

IncorpoRatedX

Explorer
perhaps the crank-shaft timing-belt pulley walked forward a little, perhaps bringing the belt with it?

Likely what happened. The crank timing gear rides on a keyway for alignment but otherwise it does not retain itself. The crank pulley and main bolt are the only things that keep it in place. When the bolt started working loose the pulley likely pulled the gear forward, probably during a downhill or 4wd downhill moment.

In regards to your post about the parts and stuff Nathan;
I couldnt tell if you're using the mitsu timing tensioner or the aftermarket one?
If you're using the aftermarket one, im sorry to inform you this late, but that wont hold up and needs to be replaced immediately. It will fail.
In regards to the $350 water pump; the factory pump is an Aisin and the Aisin pump can be bought from rock auto or ebay for about $90 with gasket. So, for future reference, dont get hosed by the dealer.

Remember guys, you can go to the original manufactures of the parts mitsu used, to avoid paying dealer mark-up.
 

nwoods

Expedition Leader
Thanks Incorporated. If it was a planned maintenance item, I would have opted for Rock Auto, but as it was an emergency repair, I scavenged parts wherever I could that was in local stock. It was my plan to get the car back on the road ASAP. Then I got ill and plans went out the window, but my intent was what drove the purchases at the time.

When we took apart the timing belt assembly, it was very loose, despite the hydraulic tensioner pin being fully extended. Maybe the belt just stretched? I really don't know. It was pretty shredded. As for the replacement tensioner, no, its not OEM. And no, I am not going to tear it apart again.

Because.....we had to do again last night! Sunday morning I started the radiator flush, and at the stage where you drive it around a bit to warm it up, I immediately noticed that the spark timing was off, and there was a LOT of spark knock under load. Not at idle, and not when rev'ing the engine without load, but put it in gear and accelerate, and it sounded like a badly tuned diesel. I figure this is related to having to replace the crankshaft gear and the timing plate, but I'm unsure if the EMS will relearn/adjust the spark timing and fuel mixture as needed, or if I manually need to do that. Nonetheless, I hopped in and drove the Monty to return the radiator flush funnel I borrowed, when the power steering went out! No problem I think, belt just needs to be tightened....keep going. I get to my destination (only about 5 miles away) and it's sounding a bit oddly, but running okay. I put it in park, pop the hood and take a look and Crap! The power steering belt isn't even moving! Also, much to my dismay, my original radiator is now leaking from a small crack on top, and spraying radiator fluid out the top in a minuscule (but powerful) jet of steam/spray from the crack. I quickly shut off the engine. When TyTy13 comes out to retrieve his funnel, I tell him what happened and he checks the belt, it's tight. Turn it over he says, let me hear it. So I do and he yells STOP! I go back and look down and the bottom AC belt had thrown itself off and the crank pulley was completely out of alignment, and wobbling loose. Crap!

After things cooled down, my temper being one of them, I started tearing all back down again. The crank bolt was tight (couldn't break it free), but clearly had backed out somehow because the pulley was super loose. With MUCH difficulty, we got the crank bolt loose (it's REALLY hard to get a strong enough impact tool on that bolt, even with the radiator pulled out). We replaced the pin again (that sticks out the crankshaft gear), reinstalled the pulley, and reinstalled the crank bolt, slathered in red locktite. This time, we used a large breaker bar to tighten it up, exceeding what we used last time (135 ft lbs). Put all the belts back on, replaced the radiator with a spare that Ty had in his garage, refilled the cooling system and gave it a go.

Engine ran smoother than ever, idled great, reached operating temperature no problem. All belts wobble free, crank pulley rock solid and plum in line... just like last time. On test drive, the engine still has a lot of spark knock under load, but it is otherwise running very smooth. Ty used an OBD2 reader to reset the engine codes. I'm not really sure if the spark knock will go away on its own or if I need to do something else, or if I boogered up something in the process of doing the timing belt. What I am really confident of is that the timing marks are right on the money. We cranked that engine about 5 times around by hand once the new belt was on and it lined up great on all three cogs (we painted the timing marks white when we first dissembled it).

I let my son drive it to school and work today, I'll find out how it is later tonight when i get home. I'm hoping adding some new, high octane fuel and just driving it a bit more will help the spark advance timing to sort itself out.
 

nwoods

Expedition Leader
BTW, though I was loathe to have to do it, I was able to remove the radiator and fan in about 30 minutes, compared to 3 days in my previous attempt. Progress!
 

IncorpoRatedX

Explorer
Nathan,

congrats on just diggin in man. You went 0-100 very quick. I have to urge you to go in there again and put a mitsu tensioner on. I know you're thinking there's no way you're doing it again and the tensioner is working, currently. But after the number of failures I've personally witnessed, not only with the 6G but also the 4G engines over the years, not only for myself but for most of the mitsu enthusiasts I grew up around. I've watched far too many folks get aftermarket hydraulic tensioners and they entirely lose their pressure, I've replaced too many heads for other people because of it. Myself, I managed to get 2 good ones before 1 bad one and then lucked out and caught it failing, was able to shut it down before any damage and replace it because I was in my driveway. But out on a trail, man, that'll suck.

As for the spark knock, weren't you running low octane fuel? Are you still? It may be relearning and trying to give it the 20+ degress of timing advance it naturally wants to, in order to make peak power, but could be experiencing spark knock and retarding the timing until it finds the happiest highest level of timing advance it can run before pre-detonating. If you're running premium, I would be concerned, but would also want to verify that it's actually spark knock and not a loose spark plug wire or something of the sort. If it's spark knock you could have a cam advanced by one tooth too many and it could be causing elevated EGT's. There's a lot that could be going on.
 

IncorpoRatedX

Explorer
additionally with all this action going on around the crankshaft pulley and gear, what's the state of the crank angle sensor? That thing could take a beating from a wandering signal plate and end up cracked or damaged in some way.
 

RyanY

Adventurer
A damaged crank sensor or signal plate mis-installed is what I too was thinking regarding the pinging/knocking. Something is wrong and you really need to figure out what it is - excessive detonation will damage the engine. Is the check engine light on?
 

nwoods

Expedition Leader
An update is past due. After the first day or two, the spark knock went away. A combination of high octane fuel, and a recalibration ECU seems to have done the trick......for a while.

Now, about two weeks later, the truck is back on blocks in the driveway, leaving my son orphaned without a vehicle once again. In the 2 years he's been driving this thing, it has proven to be quite unreliable. Though at 205,000 miles, nothing totally out of the ordinary, just.....frustrating. Here is a write up on the current issues that have it sidelined again: http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/159691-NOT-Firing-on-all-cylinders-Gen-2-5
 

nwoods

Expedition Leader
Re-reading the advice given in this thread. Solid info. Truly.

I wish I knew what it all meant at the time. Sucks being so ignorant you can't hear or understand good advice when you get it. I tried to listen to everything (except to tear it all apart again to replace the timing belt tensioner), but I just didn't have the baseline knowledge to understand what all the advice meant or was actually saying. I am still not totally sure what happened, but the Montero is out of commission, and perhaps permanently. I started the tear down this weekend again (the 3rd time now), but didn't finish. I was hoping to source a new crank gear, sensor, timing plate, key, and pin from a junkyard, but it's been very hot I just couldn't work up the enthusiasm to give a lobotomy to another Montero in the 95 degree heat of a sweltering asphalt paved junkyard.

Meanwhile, my son is looking for another car, and its looking like for the money he has (under $5k), another Montero might be the best bargain. It's just hard to spend money on another one after having this one give us so many problems over the past few years. I've learned a lot, but i've had to. I'd rather just have the damn thing run!
 

BOPOH

Explorer
dont feel too bad, i've replaced my engine twice(my fault) - tell me about tearing down :) after first couple of times you already know what goes where. One time i thought my tensioner failed and it took me 20 minutes to remove pulley bracket, i was pissed and impressed at the same time because everything turned out to be good. Really loud knocking and rough idle was caused by rock inside of combustion chamber. Now i can say that my montero literally ate a rock :D and still runs to this day
 

nwoods

Expedition Leader
Slight update. It finally cooled off a bit this week (though next weekend its supposed to be mid to upper 90's again, ugh). So we started to to put the front end back together again today. Ultimately, with the front end back together, I'll be able to crank the motor and run compression tests on the top end. But I am getting ahead of myself.

Today we (my son and I) started by replacing the crank gear, timing sensor plate, and timing sensor. To do this we had to remove the tensioner and timing belt. Somehow during this process, the left bank must have turned and move off the timing mark. I had ordered a new crank gear because my spacer that I used on the crankshaft bolt (for hand turning the motor) was a bit too large and crushed the locator pin that fits into the face of the crank gear. I also ordered a new timing plate because my old one was very corroded due to the failed water pump leaking on it. Interestingly, when comparing the new crank gear and timing plate to the one that came off the truck, the angle was quite different, despite the keyway being lined up. This caused quite a lot of consternation! Surely the timing of the new unit would be off compared to the existing... Then I remembered that the crank gear was already a replacement. Earlier in this saga we had sourced this crank gear from a buddy's spare engine, due to a similar issue with the locator pin on my original crank gear. Well, I matched up the new one with the original one, and they matched! I think the replacement one I was using in the interium is different enough to cause all the spark knock I was experiencing after my last timing belt job. This is very encouraging. Perhaps all the spare plug issues and spark knock issues can be attributed to this.

Unfortunately, we didn't get much farther for the day. I spent a few more hours trying to get the timing marks to line up, and I just wasn't able to figure it out. I think I could get cylinder #1 top dead center by using long screwdrivers riding the tops of the pistons through the spark plug holes, but the timing marks never lined up in that position, so I tried just turning the left bank crank with the timing belt off, and I went round and round 6 times, then 6 more times, then a few more times for good measure, and it never lined up. I am at a loss on how to get the left bank lined up on the timing marks. The right bank is fine, and zipped tied together. The bottom one I can manually do by cranking the engine over by hand, but I can't get the left one to line up.

This is all very odd, because they all lined up perfectly when I started, and I still not sure how the left bank got so far off. I really don't remember it turning on its own. So now I wait until I find someone local who knows how to reset the timing, because at this point, I'm pretty sure I've got it well and truly scrambled.
 

BOPOH

Explorer
sounds like fun! dont worry about marks and TDC just line up all marks and you should be good - that's what they're there for :) you might want to move one cam up or down one tooth to align marks because when everything in place it will stretch the belt and move it just a bit(enough for one tooth). On another note, you should be able to turn your crank 2 times for full revolution. Align marks, turn crank 2 times and they should align again. please note this is from my distant memory, i went through this couple of year ago :)
 

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