Expedition Trailers

[Martyn]

But a question I have is why not just a pintle style set up? Not that a camp trailer needs the unbelievable strength of a pintle.

The pintle has a number of issues beyond the noise factor.

There is no solid connection between the trailer and tow vehicle and this can set up trailer sway at speeds greater than 55 mph.

The backlash from the movement within the pintle is transmitted to the tow vehicles transmission and drive train.

A regular pintle only has 45° before it binds. (non-rotational)

I know people are going to point out that their trailer set up with a pintle doesn't sway, but the proof is in the pudding. Until you have towed with a multi axis coupler you'll never realize how bad a pintle is. It's the same as people who use coolers and then buy an Engle fridge. It's only then that they realize how bad coolers were.

The transmission of stress to the transmission and drive train is somewhat mitigated by a spring loaded pintle. The spring loaded pintle seems to be evidence in itself that the stress is an issue.

The pintle, like the leaf spring, has a history going back to horse drawn carts and stage coaches. The technology hasn't advanced much in over a hundred years.

The reason pintles are still used is that they are inter-changable between vehicles, they are a standard, they are available, and they are inexpensive. I can't see one reason from a design perspective why they are still in use.

The military uses them because they are a NATO standard and NATO wants every vehicle from every member's military to be able to tow each others trailers.

 

[Outback]

Thanks for the reply.

I have not experienced any of the negative aspects you have mentioned. I can see if a trailer was loaded improperly how a none physical connection would be bad but I have never experienced this. I have had blow outs and still never experienced any unsafe characteristics. I tow at whatever the legal speed limit is. That includes 85 mph with my recently new addition to my trailer collection. Again never any unsafe handeling characteristics. as far as back lash Im not sure what that is. Is it the small knock when you take off? If so I dont see how that would hurt a transmission or anything else.

BUT I do drive 1 ton trucks so maybe on a smaller vehicle? I dont know.

At 45 degree angle they do bind but Im not sure how thats bad. At 45 degree side angle most vehicles will roll or be close to. Again not sure how a 360 degree rotation is better.

As far as towing with a pintle or ball there is no diffrence when on the highway. I have never experienced a diffrence and if someone dropped me in a seat at 75 mph and both trailers were the same but one had a pintle and one a ball I wouldnt beable to tell you which was which. any trailer that is loaded improperly will have bad characteristics. It would be the same between a ball, pintle or multi axis.

You say "The pintle, like the leaf spring, has a history going back to horse drawn carts and stage coaches. The technology hasn't advanced much in over a hundred years." Yes the tech is old but its hard to beat a good thing. The reason these designs have been around so long is because they work.


You also say "The reason pintles are still used is that they are inter-changable between vehicles, they are a standard, they are available, and they are inexpensive. I can't see one reason from a design perspective why they are still in use.

The military uses them because they are a NATO standard and NATO wants every vehicle from every member's military to be able to tow each others trailers."

Again the system is simple fast and works great. I think you have a great design but I dont see it superior to the pintle. I dont agree with you about the characteristics you describe the pintle as having. Again I think you have a great product. Maybe this will be the future for Military vehicles. I would like to drive a trailer with one of these multi axis hitches. I am glad to see someone who is building a solid well built unit.

 

[Martyn]

Reaching 45° is easily done off-road when the vehicle is tilted in one direction and the trailer in another.

You are going to have to try the multi axis coupler for yourself to see and feel the benefits. It would be pointless me trying to convince you that they are better than the Pintle because that is what you are familiar with.

I don't place much stock in the pintle being around for so long because it's good technology. If the North American market was large enough then people would have invested time and money in new designs.

If you look at the Australian off-road market they have at least 4 brands of off-road multi axis couplers that are used by almost every rugged trailer in the country. They leave the pintles to the military. North America is playing catch up

 

[Outback]

One of my older designe pintle does rotate 360 degrees. The newer design does not. I had the newer design pretty crossed up but dont believe they met up. But again I wasnt really worried about it. The trailer followed behind me perfectly.

I may just have to buy one and see what all the fuss is about. Im sure its a good design.

You say " If you look at the Australian off-road market they have at least 4 brands of off-road multi axis couplers that are used by almost every rugged trailer in the country. They leave the pintles to the military. North America is playing catch up"

The Aussies sure have a big play ground to play in!

 

[dieselandmud]

There will soon be a 5000 lb version of the Max Coupler

Martyn
So what is the hitch you have available now rated at?

 

[Martyn]

Martyn
So what is the hitch you have available now rated at?

The Max Coupler is currently rated at 3500 lbs so it's more than adequate for small off-road trailers. The testing procedure applies three times the rated weight to the coupler, so this coupler was stressed to 10,500 lbs.

The vehicles side of the coupler needs a very small design change to get the 5000 lb rating. Getting this rating puts it into the Class III ratings and opens up a lot more markets.

 

[JIMBO]

:sombrero: I've used the ball/pintel and the "l & R from Martyn

The ball is great for hiways

The Pintel/Lunette is great for rocks/ruts/off-camber, but NOISY

The Lock and Roll is GREAT for everything and noiseless

The new Max coupler, must be better, though I'll stay with the L & R for my trailer, it's so easy to hitch/unhitch at ANY angle (which I've done)

I carry a Pintel/Lunette spare in my trailer, just incase!!!

:victory::smiley_drive::safari-rig::safari-rig: JIMBO

 

[texaslawman]

:sombrero: I've used the ball/pintel and the "l & R from Martyn

The ball is great for hiways

The Pintel/Lunette is great for rocks/ruts/off-camber, but NOISY

The Lock and Roll is GREAT for everything and noiseless

The new Max coupler, must be better, though I'll stay with the L & R for my trailer, it's so easy to hitch/unhitch at ANY angle (which I've done)

I carry a Pintel/Lunette spare in my trailer, just incase!!!

:victory::smiley_drive::safari-rig::safari-rig: JIMBO

X2 if I was starting my trailer build today I would use the Max coupler but Ill stick with the lock n roll now.

 

[ntsqd]

FWIW every bumper hitched tow vehicle - trailer combination has a Critical Speed; one where the combo will start to sway. The trick is to push it up to a speed that isn't reasonable to tow at. There is at least one formula that will predict what that speed is, but it's complicated and would be a mess to try to put into normal text. There is also a value for the trailer tire's sidewall stiffness that would be hard to acquire and a PITA to empirically derive. Besides, by the time that you derived it you'd know the answer already!

The ball coupler has more internal friction in it than does the pintle/lunette design. That friction, though it isn't much, does have a damping ability on trailer sway. How much of an effect I do not know, but with some folks implying or having experienced that the pintle/lunette will sway long before a ball coupler I'm inclined to think that even though the friction isn't great that it's effect on trailer sway is.

 

[Borrego60]

The Max Coupler is currently rated at 3500 lbs so it's more than adequate for small off-road trailers. The testing procedure applies three times the rated weight to the coupler, so this coupler was stressed to 10,500 lbs.

The vehicles side of the coupler needs a very small design change to get the 5000 lb rating. Getting this rating puts it into the Class III ratings and opens up a lot more markets.

Hi Martyn, you stated the vehicle side needs a small design change to rate 5000lbs. Care to state what design change is needed. My tundra is rated for 6500lbs.
Thanks this would be a great addition to the thread multi axis coupler.

 

[Martyn]

Hi Martyn, you stated the vehicle side needs a small design change to rate 5000lbs. Care to state what design change is needed. My tundra is rated for 6500lbs.
Thanks this would be a great addition to the thread multi axis coupler.

I'd prefer not to say how the coupler is being modified. The engineers learned something from the original testing that they hadn't taken into account during design.

The coupler has been redesigned and is now being reworked in Solid Works. Once that is complete it will be sent out to testing again.

 

[Outback]

Sway in a trailer is directly related to how its loaded. The further behind the axle you go with weight the more it wants to act like a pengilum. The further forward you go from the axle the more stable the trailer becomes. The more weight you have on the tongue can reduce the tow vehicles front tire contact patch or weight that is on the front tire. Ideally you want the trailer nice and level as well as the tow vehicle. If your tow vehicle is all jacked up front and the *** end is sunk down and your trailer leaning forward you have to much weight on the tongue. Very bad. If you have everything nice and level but your trailers *** end keeps swaying you have to much weight on the rear of the trailer. This is the biggest reason people loose control of there trailers. They start to sway and it keeps building and building and you loose control. One must take the time and play around with how the trailer is loaded. One rule of thumb is to place the heaviest items on top of and just forward of the axle(s). In front of that the next heaviest things until you get to the front. Behing the rear axle you want the lightest stuff going from light to lightest at the very back. One of our crews lost control of a trailer on the highway in a fog. It had about 1 million in gear in it. Then comes a semi truck and no more trailer or gear. These yahoos always loaded the trailers the exact opposite of what I described above. The reason? Because it was easier to load and unload when they got to base. I kept telling them it was wrong. The driver always complained about how it handled. NO ****! was my response you guys are loading it wrong.........Everytime I would pick up there trailer for whatever reason I would always completely unload it and then reload it. NEVER any problems. Then after they crashed they started to load the trailer right. Gee wonder why. A day late and a Million dollars later. Its all in how the weight is distributed. If there loaded right they wont sway and will follow you perfectly.

 

[AzRover]

I use Dixon Bate 7.6 ton rotating pintle
( http://www.dixonbate.co.uk/towing/product.asp?PartNo=FV987957 ) to pull my M101A2. It works well. I have the hitch a little bit lower than the where it would be for a level trailer. That makes the trailer quiet when lightly loaded, or with a load who's weight is evenly distributed.
They make a light duty version also. I just got this one at a low price on Ebay.

 

[ntsqd]

Even with a well designed & built, perfectly loaded trailer there is a speed at which it will start to sway. The trick is that a well built trailer loaded correctly has a Critical Speed that is high enough to be completely unreasonable to drive at.

 

[go4aryd]

...and any sway will be amplified with a pintle anytime you are coasting - like down a rutted, washboardy road. Has nothing to do with trailer loading, just the additional play of a pintle. (...and I am a noise hater on those backroads).