fullsize/ifs/off-road; can you have all 3 at once?

i've been considering a small lift and tires on the tahoe. it will not be the normal ofroader of the family but may need to be called upon on occasion, so i would like to get it dialed in. what are everyones opinions on a full size with ifs for off road use, i.e. fire roads, old county roads and the like. i normally use the 4 runner for these applications, but lately have really enjoyed the room that the tahoe has to offer. if i were to run 33's on stock wheels with torsion keys and spacers in the rears (3" lift), will the ifs live? i know my driving style has a lot to do with it but i drive off road like you guys do. to see things , not break things. thanks in advance
 

cruiserlarry

One Crazy FJ
You'll do OK on fire roads and the like, but nothing too serious.

The entire GM light truck platform has had issues with the steering linkage, and the more lift / tire weight / aggressive trails, the more likely you'll encounter a linkage failure, based on my experience repairing the vehicles.

The Tahoe is also very heavy, has limited clearance, no traction device in either diff, and very light-duty under body protection. As a long wheelbase vehicle, tight trails and switchbacks are out of the question, too.

IMO, for basic camping - no problem. For anything more serious, I'd consider using a vehicle more suited for the task...:ylsmoke:
 

HenryJ

Expedition Leader
I disagree. You can have a very capable vehicle for offroad use. The 1500 platform can take quite a bit of abuse.
IFS can have advantages over solid axle vehicles in some conditions. Look for inspiration in the Rally, Baja and Dakar vehicles.
There are plenty factory options that are desireable. Shields were on the Z71 optioned vehicles and will all fit the Tahoe. The eaton gov-loc differential has worked very well for me. RPO code G80.
It is true that the idler, pitman and ball joints can be issues. Replace them as needed with better parts. Personally I have had very few problems with them in the fleet or personally. Those that did have worn parts replaced did not come back for more. Do it right the first time.

Don't go crazy. Stay moderate but capable. A 33" tire will take you where you want to go and even a little farther than you think.
I am currently putting together a 2005 Avalanche to replace my S-10 crew cab. It will be as capable or better. Those who knew my truck , know that it was very capable offroad.
 

bftank

Explorer
sounds like it will work fine for what you are doing. for the record i agree with cruiser larry 100%.

my only advise is to get the tires first and see if they fit before getting crazy with a lift. try the skinny 255/85 off your 4runner to see if they fit, should be the same bolt pattern i think. i prefer the creative and simple approach to getting what you need, vs. blowing unnecessary mula.
 

HenryJ

Expedition Leader
I'm running 285/70-17 tires after Ford keys and a 1" coil spacer. Total investment $59 for the lift. My research shows that this combination should offer reasonable mileage without a re-gear. Plenty of clearance without rubbing. 12" clearance at the lowest point on the front shield.

I have had a tough time finding good information, but with some time you can weed through and find what you need.

Z71 Tahoe-Suburban forum has been helpful.
Not as much from the Avalanche fan club , but still some useful insight.
 

poriggity

Explorer
With a little bit of lift, done properly, and some careful driving, I think you'll be fine for mild off road duties. I think most people give the GM IFS less credit than it really deserves.
Scott
 

KLAKEBRONCO

Adventurer
That's the wrong IFS.:)

You can build a IFS Ford that pushes the strength of a D60, and wheel travel of a solid axle.
 

02TahoeMD

Explorer
On my Tahoe I have Ford keys with cranked torsion bars, 2 inch spacers, Z71 Coil springs, and am running close to a 33" Nitto Terra Grappler. I have taken my truck on several hundred miles of off road trails in AZ, CO, UT, PA, MD, NC, and VA and have never gotten stuck. As long as you are not looking to build a Rubicon Trail capable vehicle, I think the Tahoe will serve you just fine. Just know your limitations and, as mentioned, take care of the front end stuff as they wear out.
 

Zatara

Adventurer
The GM IFS is every bit as capable as any of the Toyota IFS setups that so many use here and rave about. They are not rock crawlers but mine has gone many places where others said it wouldn't without breaking.
It's more about driving style and ability than anything else. I have a friend who takes his 2WD truck most places our 4x4s go.

The best thing you can do is go to Cognitomotorsports.com and check out their steering support brackets and other stuff for the IFS.
 

boellis87

Observer
GM IFS definitely has things about it that aren't optimum for serious off-road abuse, but, with that said, it is definitely not given the credit it deserves. I went farther than what you have planned and put a 6" Rough Country lift on mine with 35" BFG's (with a Gov-Loc 10 bolt rearend!!) and I was always impressed with the performance. I knew the weaknesses and drove accordingly, but that doesn't mean I didn't test it. Before all my friends started going way extreme with their rides, it was the vehicle we turned to to perform extractions and the like. I've posted these before, but here it is.

A more severe dropoff than it looks like from the bottom.
blackhouse1.jpg


blackhouse3.jpg


This is the only time I ever broke anything. I tried extracting a thoroughly stuck Jeep and ended up just digging giant holes because the chain was too short to keep me out of the mudhole. I pegged my truck a little hard and broke a front shaft. Broke a valve stem and had a flat too. Drove out with 3 35" tires and a 29" spare.
mestuck.jpg


All this being said, it's been SAS'd since ha ha.
MyTruck1.jpg


Your 33's will be fine and if you pay attention to what you're doing, you shouldn't be too disappointed with how often parts are replaced. Go for it!
 

goodtimes

Expedition Poseur
To the question of 'will the IFS live' -- sure. It's fine as long as you aren't getting crazy with it.

But there are a couple issues created by IFS lifts. Keep in mind that these are all relative to the amount of lift -- the more lift you attain = the greater each of these problems will be.

First is the fact that as your steering knuckles are moved down relative to the centerlink/draglink. When torque is applied to the front tires, the tires try to toe in -- the tie rod ends and centerlink prevent that from happening (assuming the components don't bend/break). When the tie rod ends and center link are all parallel, forces placed on them are acting against each other, so those forces are almost entirely absorbed by those components - very little force is transferred to the idler and pitman arms.

For an easy to understand analogy, consider your arms to be the tie rods, and your collar bone to be the center link. Hold your arms out strait (lock your elbows), parallel to the ground. You have a relatively strait line from one hand all the way through to the other. Have one person push on each hand (push strait towards the opposite hand). Your arms / collar bone easily absorb the force -- just like the tie rods and centerlink do on your truck.

When you lift the vehicle, you invariably lower the steering knuckles relative to the centerlink. You no longer have a strait line through all 3 components. When torque is applied to the front tires, they try to toe in (just like they do in an un-lifted vehicle). But now, the tie rods / center link are not all parallel, so some of the force is transferred vertically through the center link, where the idler arm and pitman arm is forced to deal with it.

Back to the arm/collar bone analogy -- if you lower your hands so they are 18" below the shoulder, still held out to your sides with your elbows locked, then have someone push on each hand, strait toward the opposite hand, you will find it much harder to keep your hands in one spot -- they move towards your body and your collar bone gets pushed up. That vertical force is what the idler and pitman arm are forced to deal with -- and it causes wear and handling issues. The greater the angle between the tie rods and centerlink (or your arms and collar bone), the greater the problem.




The second problem is that the upper and lower control arms (A-arms) will be farther down in their arc. Problems here are two-fold. First, the ball joints are now operating closer to the edge of their travel limits, making it easier to exceed those limits. Lift kits that replace the upper arms generally correct this. The second problem with the arms being lower in their arc is that it causes excessive camber changes when the suspension cycles. When the arms are parallel to the ground, there is little horizontal movement for each unit of vertical movement. As they move away from parallel (to the ground), the horizontal movement increases exponentially relative to the vertical movement. This is compounded by the fact that GM uses a shorter arm on top than on the bottom (shorter arm = smaller arc radius). The result is that the upper arm sees more horizontal movement than the lower arm -- the result of that is camber change. Kits that use drop brackets to lower the arms (rather than just indexing the torsion bars) minimize this problem by keeping the arms close to their OEM relationship to each other and the ground -- but they also greatly increase cost and complexity.

The third problem is that the CV joints (half shafts) are now operating at an increased angle. The greater the angle, the weaker they are. Also associated with that is increased CV boot wear. Once the CV joint is operating at such an angle that causes the pleats in the boot to rub together, the boots wear quickly. Some aftermarket boots have fewer pleats, and therefor allow you to run them at greater angles before the pleats rub.

The lift kits that lower the control arms often also lower the front differential, which helps reduce the angle that the half shafts are operating at. Of course this causes the front driveshaft to operate at a greater angle -- depending on the amount of lift, the CV joint on the driveshaft may be compromised.







The further you push any of those angles, the greater the problem will be. If you are only looking at an inch of lift, you probably aren't going to see drastic changes is handling and wear. If you are looking for 3", you will see dramatic changes (bad changes) unless you address the suspension (drop brackets) and steering geometry (longer tie rods / shorter center link, etc), CV joint/boot wear, driveshaft issues, etc.
 

coreys88burban

Adventurer
i've been considering a small lift and tires on the tahoe. it will not be the normal ofroader of the family but may need to be called upon on occasion, so i would like to get it dialed in. what are everyones opinions on a full size with ifs for off road use, i.e. fire roads, old county roads and the like. i normally use the 4 runner for these applications, but lately have really enjoyed the room that the tahoe has to offer. if i were to run 33's on stock wheels with torsion keys and spacers in the rears (3" lift), will the ifs live? i know my driving style has a lot to do with it but i drive off road like you guys do. to see things , not break things. thanks in advance

youll be fine with anything you want, just dont get on top of big boulders for that big angle with one front tire on it and one on the ground, make sure your careful on basketball size rocks and potholes as ifs tie rods are the weak link to ifs. if you get some tie rod sleeves youll most likely not have a problem one. my dad has a IFS crew cab long box duramax and we have had it places you can believe (stock wheels and height with torsion bars turned down!) only problem we have is clearnance/ ripped of the front air dam like 3 times:Wow1: hell ge some 35s if you want to! you see all those duramax trucks on 37's they are are IFS trucks (unless its swapped) and ive heard of those guys doing 50 mph on logging roads with potholes so they do fine.. IMO id forget the leveling kit idea and just get a nice 3-6" of suspension lift with your choice of tires. turning the torsion bars will make you mpgs go down as will a lift/tires.. with IFS stay away from tough country and rancho and others that are cheap priced becuase the torsion bars break a lot becuase of bad angle/ weight distributions. for IFS the abolute best lift w/o going SAS is Cognito!
 

coreys88burban

Adventurer
also a tahoe on 33s should go anywhere you point it! someone said switchbacks and some roads are not for you with a long wheelbase but ive been there with my burban and my dads truck i described above ( IFS cclb) witch is 22ft long and has about 8" clearance in the front end! its all about those 3 point turns and some time 12 point turns:wings:
 
thanks everyone. like i said earlier, this truck is my dd. i don't plan on anything to major. i've already done qite a bit of research on the steering issues. those tie rods are small. i'll probably rebuild the whoel front end next spring;steering, balljoints, bushings, ect.... i would ultimately like to use this truck to haul a trailer with a rtt. the family camping rig. not going to ther rubicon with it.

i'll check out cognito today.

on a side note, i was watching nitro circus this morning and saw a mid 90's suburban jump about 80' and drive away. i think with 33's and my driving style i'll be ok. thanks again.
 

iigs

Observer
<snip>
The greater the angle between the tie rods and centerlink (or your arms and collar bone), the greater the problem.
<snip>

Thanks for taking the time to post this detailed explanation... I found it very helpful.
 

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