New Member, and a question

[rmcnabb]

Hello -
I'm really glad to have found this site as it's much more along the lines of what I want to do as opposed to recreational weekend 4 wheeling. I'm more interested in expeditions and long distance travel.

I'm thinking of replacing my built up D2 with one of the early 80's diesel 109's that are starting to pop up all over. I am starting to be too paranoid about my D2's electronic gadgets to enjoy being out in the woods with it. I am constantly expecting it to fry some little component and leave me stranded.

Good plan? Bad plan? Should I stay with what I have? Are these diesels prone to any inherent problems other than rust? I want to start doing some long range trips and just can't see a 10 year old D2 as being a reliable vehicle going into its second decade. Am I wrong? I know with enough money you can drive a Deusenburg around the world.

 

[rugbier]

how early of 80's are you considering?

up to 1982 the diesel 109 were 2.5 NA 4 spd ( some with overdrive )
1983 were the 110, some early 83 had the the same 2.5NA but with a l77 5 sped tranny

thern late 83 and up were available with 200 TDI or 300 TDI with LT77 5 spd,
however some have been altered with different Tranny and T-Cases to mimic more modern Rovers ( i.e R380, LT95 etc )

Better get used to Downshifting when going uphill :smiley_drive:

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Have you actually HAD any electrical problems with the D2 that left you stranded? Everybody talks about, it but seems to be pretty rare in reality.

 

[I Leak Oil]

Series Rovers have their issues. What vehicle doesn't? As long as the frame and bulkhead are solid there is nothing that can't be easily fixed. Should you make the jump (up of course!) from the DII to a 109"? Only you can answer that. Find someone near you that will let you take one for a spin. You do have to have the right personality and temperment to live with one but I find it easy to do. Atleast that's what I keep telling myself.:sombrero:

 

[jrose609]

Have you actually HAD any electrical problems with the D2 that left you stranded? Everybody talks about, it but seems to be pretty rare in reality.

My D2 had no electrical problems, til it caught fire and burned. Of course, that was because of power steering leak that kept dribbling on the exhaust, and it caught after a long trip up a steep hill...........

I loved that rig too!

 

[kellymoe]

Import Defender 110's are becoming more plentiful and can be had at a fairly decent price these days. You can find them in gasoline or diesel and they are extremely simple to work on, at least the gasoline V8's are easy to work on, I have no knowledge of diesel motors. I have a 1980's Defender 130 Crew Cab V8 with Edelbrock intake manifold and carb. it has been much more reliable than any newer Rover I have owned including a Disco, 94 D90 and 1988 RRC. It's build tough and has taken me everywhere I have asked it to go without issue.

 

[rmcnabb]

Well, there have been multiple mechanical things go wrong, or get upgraded before they DID go wrong, but frankly other than seat motors and moonroof motor, nothing electrical. So you have a point.

I just started out in 4x4 on a 1953 Dodge Power Wagon M37, and have been sort of yearning for that simplicity ever since. You could disassemble most of it with Vise Grips.

I'd like to find a source that discusses all the early/mid 80's diesel/tranny combinations, and which is best. Somebody needs to make a spread sheet. Max road speed, durability, simplicity, ease of service, parts availability, etc. etc. Everyone seems to like what they have.

Thanks very much for your help. This is a great message board.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

So, you upgraded things before they did go wrong, because people on the internet told you they would go wrong if you didn't upgrade them. Yet I'm guessing you had your 1953 Dodge Power Wagon during the pre-internet years, so it might have had it's own issues that were probably going to fail, but you just didn't know about them.

I find that while the internet is an amazing tool for allowing a very specific group to find eachother and share info, it also leads to a situation where the perception of reality is altered. It leads to scare mongering due to information overload.

Go to ANY messageboard for ANY vehicle, and I think you'll find they all think their car is unreliable, with lots of flaws that need to be fixed.

You know, LR used a Bosch Mass Airflow Sensor on this truck, and they fail somewhat frequently. You often hear that it's one more thing that sucks about LR, sucks about the D2, etc. The fact is, that exact same Bosch sensor is used on just about every European car. They all suck, and they all fail. Even in BMWs, Porsches, Mercedes, etc.

Maybe your Powerwagon had a bad distributor gear design, and there was a 10% chance it was going to fail and leave you stranded. If it happened you'd think, well, it sucks, but you'd fix it and go on with your life.

Fast forward to today, you'd post it on the Powerwagon message board, and a whole bunch of people would post "That happened to me too!" All of a sudden it becomes "common knowledge" that Powerwagon distributor gears suck. Then somebody figures out that a distributor gear from a Ford will fit, and is better, and everybody goes out and replaces theirs before the original fails, even though 90% of them would have been fine. Multiply that by a few other issues that would afflict 1 in 10 vehicles, and all the sudden people think the Powerwagon sucks because it has all these issues that need to be fixed, even though odds are, they wouldn't all happen to you.

 

[TeriAnn]

up to 1982 the diesel 109 were 2.5 NA 4 spd ( some with overdrive )
1983 were the 110, some early 83 had the the same 2.5NA but with a l77 5 sped tranny

thern late 83 and up were available with 200 TDI or 300 TDI with LT77 5 spd,
however some have been altered with different Tranny and T-Cases to mimic more modern Rovers ( i.e R380, LT95 etc )

A minor correction or two if you don't mind:

The 1983 One Ten was available with:
2.5L petrol engine rated 83 bhp @4000 RPM, 133 lb ft @ 2000 RPM
2.5L diesel engine rated 68 bhp @4000 RPM, 117 lb ft @ 1800 RPM
3.5L V8 engine rated 114 bhp @ 4000 RPM, 185 lnft @2500 RPM

Factory estimated fuel consumption in UK gallons for a One Ten:
Engine : Urban : constant speed 56 MPH
2.5L petrol : 14.5MP(UK)G : 21
2.5L diesel : 21.6MP(UK)G : 24.7
3.5 V8: 11.7MP(UK)G : 19.7 : 14.5 @ 75 MPH

The above data is from a Land Rover Ninety and One Ten brochure I have which lists their offerings & options.

Gearbox is the LT77 five speed (originally used in Jaguars) was used with the four cylinder One Tens. The stronger LT85 was used with the 3.5L V8.

The 200tdi was introduced for the 1990 model year and was coupled with the LT77 5 speed gearbox. The bellhousing pattern is the same as the earlier Land Rover 2.5L diesel & petrol engines. Defender engines produced 107bhp and the Discovery engines, with different manifolding produced 111bhp.

The LT77S was a strengthened version of the LT77 which was introduced in 1991 when the LT85 was no longer available. It was in production 1991 through 1993.

The 300tdi engine was introduced for the 1995 model year, replacing the 200tdi. The 300tdi was coupled with the RD380 five speed gearbox which has a different bellhousing pattern than the earlier 4 cylinder engines. The 300 tdi has virtually the same power ratings as a 200tdi.

The R380 replaced the LT77S between 1994 and 2006 when it was replaced by the GFT MT 82 six-speed gearbox.

Getting back to the original question:

Series trucks consider frames to be a replaceable vehicle component and there are companies in the UK that manufacture replacement frames. UK and German frames often have major rust issues. The folks over there consider that normal so will almost always describe a frame that to an American seems like major terminal rust was "normal rust" Unless you have a friend you trust poking at a frame for you, assume any truck you purchase from Europe will have lots of rust and welded on patches. Assume you may need to reframe the vehicle and pay accordingly.

Vehicles designed for sale in Europe are LHD as are ex-military army of the rhine trucks which were built for use in West Germany. UK, South African, Australian & New Zealand spec trucks are RHD and may well have different engines.

This should give you a basis for additional questions.

 

[greenmeanie]

One minor correction is the early 110 V8 had an LT95 and not an 85. This is the same as the Stage 1 V8, early Range Rover and, in a slightly different form, the 101. Its a big, fairly agricultural 4 speed with the gearbox and transfer case cast as one lump, a center diff with vacuum operated lock and its own built in oil pump for lubrication. It is probably the strongest box Rover ever made. One good aspect is that you can raise the gearing by swapping out transfer gears so you can tune the gearing to your taste without resorting to the rather weak overdrive.

I don't know when this changed to the later gearboxes described by TA.

 

[rmcnabb]

So, you upgraded things before they did go wrong, because people on the internet told you they would go wrong if you didn't upgrade them. Yet I'm guessing you had your 1953 Dodge Power Wagon during the pre-internet years, so it might have had it's own issues that were probably going to fail, but you just didn't know about them.

There is great wisdom there. I didn't quite fall down that rabbit hole, but I did do a few things such as replace the airbag suspension with OME, replace front prop shaft with a U joint model, etc. But you're 100% correct about the "hive mind" of upgrading until the car is modi-fried. I've done some freaky off roading with stock differentials that are supposedly weak and failure prone - of course they have yet to fail.

All of which makes me wonder if I shouldn't just stick where I'm at. I'm no mechanic and I'm probably fooling myself that I could repair a broke 110 diesel in the Alaskan outback any better than I could fix a broke D2. The thousands I'd spend on a different vehicle and its attendant repairs could make what I have now pretty amazing.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Now, I'm not saying that these trucks don't have "issues" and that we shouldn't be upgrading them. I'm just saying, don't mistake the knowledge of these issues, compared to a relative lack of knowledge from other vehicles, as being that the new vehicle is less reliable than the old vehicle.

That's a big thing I see happening a lot on message boards.

ie: Try and find a message board for a... Kia Rio. You probably won't. Now, go to a Ford Focus message board, and look at all the posting of problems (and their solutions). Just because the postings exist, does not mean the Focus is less reliable than the Kia. Ditto if you try to find a Ford Model T website.

That's my point.

 

[TeriAnn]

One minor correction is the early 110 V8 had an LT95 and not an 85. This is the same as the Stage 1 V8, early Range Rover and, in a slightly different form, the 101. Its a big, fairly agricultural 4 speed with the gearbox and transfer case cast as one lump, a center diff with vacuum operated lock and its own built in oil pump for lubrication. It is probably the strongest box Rover ever made.

I guess Land Rover publication LR335 got it wrong then when they stated the One Ten V8 used a five speed gearbox and provided gear ratio specs for the LT85. The silly factory forgot to provide any specs in their sales document for the LT95.

BTW, both the LT95 and LT85 are Santana gearboxes, not Land Rover gearboxes. The LT85 was discontinued in Land Rover products when Land Rover severed their licensing agreements with Santana.

I know, trivia, but it might make a difference to someone looking for an early One Ten for purchase. BTW it is generally not a good idea to argue specs with someone who has Land Rover factory documents in her hot little hands

 

[greenmeanie]

This isn't a spec arguement. It is adding a missing piece of information. LR switched from the LT95 to the LT85 in 1985 presumably to give it parts commonality with the 90 V8 introduction.

My brother has an original early 83 110 V8 sitting in his driveway in the UK. There is no mistaking the LT95 underneath.

 

[TeriAnn]

This isn't a spec arguement. It is adding a missing piece of information. LR switched from the LT95 to the LT85 in 1985 presumably to give it parts commonality with the 90 V8 introduction.

My brother has an original early 83 110 V8 sitting in his driveway in the UK. There is no mistaking the LT95 underneath.

Thank you for the correction. I assumed my brochure was from 1983 because they referred to a 1983 fuel testing spec. Under closer re-examination the brochure appears to cover the 1984 model year. So from your experience it appears that there was a single year where the One Ten used a LT95. I'll make a note of that. Thanks for taking the effort to get past my assumption with real data.