Payload Tolerances: how close to max is too much?

[andy_b]

Thanks for all of this, @1000arms! I particularly appreciate the notes about pre/post 2017 trucks and tire differences between the F-350 and F-550.

Having done the math a few times, talking to some folks at Total Composite, and working through what we currently carry in our trailer, the modern F-350 DRW pickup would almost certainly meet our payload need. I had planned to do a bed delete and replace it with an aluminum flatbed.

Going DRW has the added benefit of letting us put a slightly wider habitat on the back.

One thing I wish I could figure out if if the Earth Cruiser Terranova is a super single or an SRW from the factory. And if the latter, how are they keeping it within payload.



That's good to know! Didn't realize that!

The Terranova as delivered is within the payload specs of a modern SRW 350/3500. Based on their assumed payload specs on the website, they intended it to be mounted on a SRW 350/3500.

Keeping it that way once loaded with people and supplies is the end user's responsibility. FWIW, it won't be.

 

[ReluctantTraveler]

Keeping it that way once loaded with people and supplies is the end user's responsibility. FWIW, it won't be.

Are you sure? The max GVWR for SRW crew cabs is 11,400, which is the wet weight of a Terranova. Their engineers seem better than that.

 

[andy_b]

Are you sure? The max GVWR for SRW crew cabs is 11,400, which is the wet weight of a Terranova. Their engineers seem better than that.

Are you?

You are getting trapped into the nuances of the gross vehicle weight rating, a vehicle's curb weight and EC's marketing.

As you point out, EC claims that the wet weight of the completed camper is ~11,000lbs which is within the GVWR of a modern SRW 350/3500. Without calling and confirming, that is almost certainly restricted to the weight of the camper, fluids needed to run the truck, and maybe fresh water. It could not include the weight of the passengers, their gear and anything else; how would EC know how much the passengers and their stuff weighs? They can claim that the vehicle rolls off of their lot within the manufacturer's ratings, because it does. To think that this will still be true once actually outfitted for travel seems hard to believe.

It would be hard to sell the Terranovas if EC were honest that the camper adds enough weight to the chassis that once filled with occupants and their detritus that you'd then have to go up again in size to be "within limits."

That is why I shared the weight of our setup fully loaded (minus the chassis) is ~3500-4000lbs. This is the total amount of weight our kit would add to any vehicle when outfitted for actual use. It helps to create more of an apples-to-apples comparison.

 

[ReluctantTraveler]

It could not include the weight of the passengers, their gear and anything else; how would EC know how much the passengers and their stuff weighs?

I'm not saying it does. I'm saying that based on their own stated specs, they're already at the maximum weight for the vehicle if it's a factory SRW.

That means they're either converting a DRW to singles, or modifying the frame and suspension and testing it and getting it certified for a higher rating.

I'm actually going to email them and ask right now, though, because I'm really curious!

 

[andy_b]

I'm not saying it does. I'm saying that based on their own stated specs, they're already at the maximum weight for the vehicle if it's a factory SRW.

That means they're either converting a DRW to singles, or modifying the frame and suspension and testing it and getting it certified for a higher rating.

I'm actually going to email them and ask right now, though, because I'm really curious!

I appreciate your tendency to look at the bright side, but as you mentioned above, they are delivered at the GVWR. This still allows them to look customers in the face and say that their product does not exceed the manufacturer's rating. I am happy to be proven wrong.

Regarding their wheel package - is not a super single conversion. Based on their images, they're using off the shelf Method wheels. It could be possible that they address the different backspacing/offset issues with just spacers, but that seems highly unlikely.

Likewise, the hoops to jump through to modify the frame and get a new GVWR sticker are substantial. Earth Roamer does this on some of their models which is reflected in their pricing.

The idea that EC would take a 350, deliver it with a curb weight of 11k and then do the engineering and modifications to accept another 500-1000lbs in passengers and gear rather than just using a 550/5500 chassis and skip all that extra work seems strange, don't you think?

 

[ReluctantTraveler]

I appreciate your tendency to look at the bright side, but as you mentioned above, they are delivered at the GVWR. This still allows them to look customers in the face and say that their product does not exceed the manufacturer's rating. I am happy to be proven wrong.

Regarding their wheel package - is not a super single conversion. Based on their images, they're using off the shelf Method wheels. It could be possible that they address the different backspacing/offset issues with just spacers, but that seems highly unlikely.

Likewise, the hoops to jump through to modify the frame and get a new GVWR sticker are substantial. Earth Roamer does this on some of their models which is reflected in their pricing.

I'm exchanging emails with them right now. It's the SRW factory chassis cab, and they beef up the rear with some springs.

They're claiming that with a wet weight of 11,400 lbs, there's 1,600 lbs of payload left for people and gear. I'm not sure how that's possible, when Ford's on spec sheet says they're already at max.

 

[ReluctantTraveler]

That's exactly what they do. They have the vehicle recertified with Earth Cruiser as the manufacturer and a new GVWR of about 13,000 lbs.

 

[1000arms]

Thanks for all of this, @1000arms! I particularly appreciate the notes about pre/post 2017 trucks and tire differences between the F-350 and F-550.

Having done the math a few times, talking to some folks at Total Composite, and working through what we currently carry in our trailer, the modern F-350 DRW pickup would almost certainly meet our payload need. I had planned to do a bed delete and replace it with an aluminum flatbed.

Going DRW has the added benefit of letting us put a slightly wider habitat on the back.

One thing I wish I could figure out if if the Earth Cruiser Terranova is a super single or an SRW from the factory. And if the latter, how are they keeping it within payload.



That's good to know! Didn't realize that!

You are welcome. 😀

If you order a new pickup truck, I suggest ordering it with the standard pickup bed to avoid any hassles of an “incomplete vehicle”.

The pickup bed can likely be sold for more than the “box-delete” will save you, and can be used on the pickup truck until you replace it with a flatbed (or a nearly-flatbed such as the Bowen).

As you are aware, vehicles used on the road in the USA (and many other countries) have limits in length, width, and height (as well as weight). The challenge is fitting what one wants and/or needs into the maximum legal limits (or lesser limits chosen for any number of reasons). ... So, replacing the DRW pickup truck bed with a flatbed can help you gain some extra volume to work with, but the floor between the wheels will sit a bit higher on the flatbed than in the pickup bed (which has wheel wells formed into the tub). ... The right flatbed with boxes below the bed can make good use of the volume that pickup beds waste, but watch the weight of what it s placed there, especially on a F-350/3500.

I suggest you calculate how much extra volume a flatbed on a pickup truck will give you compared to a pickup bed. The actual volume gained might be a lot less than you think, especially if you don’t make use of the volume below the flatbed. 😀

Any extra volume gained might be worth it when fitting your family into a (truck) camper, but you might be surprised at the cost for each extra cubic foot. 😀

I suspect that the right 2017+ F-350 DRW 4x4 CCLB 7.3L gas engine pickup truck and a Total Composites habitat with a carefully designed interior would work well for you and your family. The DRW would help with stability, especially with an 8’ wide box, and help with payload.

 

[lanceatm]

Greetings All.
A while ago we made some videos to help unravel some of the many rules and regs when it comes to "manufacturing" and building vehicles in the USA. Attached links below.
Many of these rules are familiar to manufacturers around the world through various international treaties. The acronyms might be different but the intent is more or less the same.
For clarity EarthCruiser USA is a vehicle manufacture.

Vehicles that happen to built for overlanding don`t get any special treatment from the Feds. There are no special rules for individual or personal building that I am aware of.
The list of practical consideration for keeping ones truck as light as possible are many.

We hope this is helpful, no sales pitch included I promise. Just info from people who do this for a living.

Axle weight part one -
Axle weight part two -
Acronyms part one -
Acronyms part two -

 

[ReluctantTraveler]

Greetings All.
A while ago we made some videos to help unravel some of the many rules and regs when it comes to "manufacturing" and building vehicles in the USA. Attached links below.
Many of these rules are familiar to manufacturers around the world through various international treaties. The acronyms might be different but the intent is more or less the same.
For clarity EarthCruiser USA is a vehicle manufacture.

Vehicles that happen to built for overlanding don`t get any special treatment from the Feds. There are no special rules for individual or personal building that I am aware of.
The list of practical consideration for keeping ones truck as light as possible are many.

We hope this is helpful, no sales pitch included I promise. Just info from people who do this for a living.

Axle weight part one -
Axle weight part two -
Acronyms part one -
Acronyms part two -

Thanks Lance! I noticed that the Terranova has a higher GVRW than the factory specs from Ford.

Is EC making frame and suspension mods to achieve that? I know you try to keep as close to what Ford engineers intended as possible.

 

[lanceatm]

Thanks Lance! I noticed that the Terranova has a higher GVRW than the factory specs from Ford.

Is EC making frame and suspension mods to achieve that? I know you try to keep as close to what Ford engineers intended as possible.

G`day
All manufacturers have very clear body builder guides to changes to specific chassis, some, can not be changed.
When starting a scope of work say for the Terra Nova Info arrives in CAD file through a portal of some kind. We build the truck and return the file. In particular they want to know how its attached and what is the weight distribution. Its all about weight, and where it is.

Working with in there parameters we design so chassis modifications will not be required by them for our application of there chassis.
Only wheels - tyres - suspension.
Retest of the vehicle ( normally a third part but we have the qualifications) and it is completed as a EarthCruiser TerraNova. Its not a "truck camper" its a vehicle model made by EarthCruiser that now enjoys the protection of the Federal systems as any other new vehicle.

As a side note -
The two more difficult tests to pass ( there are hundreds) is brake failure and lane change. Trucks that are to tall or have weight to high or in the wrong place really struggle to pass the sudden brake failure (all braking wheels are disabled in turn) thus forcing a high speed swerve in all directions. Its a interesting ride.
The lane change test brakes are not allowed to be activated, trucks pitch or roll out side of OEM - fail.

This would not be possible if the chassis had a bed on it from the factory since its considered complete.

Does that help?

 

[ReluctantTraveler]

G`day
All manufacturers have very clear body builder guides to changes to specific chassis, some, can not be changed.
When starting a scope of work say for the Terra Nova Info arrives in CAD file through a portal of some kind. We build the truck and return the file. In particular they want to know how its attached and what is the weight distribution. Its all about weight, and where it is.

Working with in there parameters we design so chassis modifications will not be required by them for our application of there chassis.
Only wheels - tyres - suspension.
Retest of the vehicle ( normally a third part but we have the qualifications) and it is completed as a EarthCruiser TerraNova. Its not a "truck camper" its a vehicle model made by EarthCruiser that now enjoys the protection of the Federal systems as any other new vehicle.

As a side note -
The two more difficult tests to pass ( there are hundreds) is brake failure and lane change. Trucks that are to tall or have weight to high or in the wrong place really struggle to pass the sudden brake failure (all braking wheels are disabled in turn) thus forcing a high speed swerve in all directions. Its a interesting ride.
The lane change test brakes are not allowed to be activated, trucks pitch or roll out side of OEM - fail.

This would not be possible if the chassis had a bed on it from the factory since its considered complete.

Does that help?

Impressive, and yea it does, thanks!