honda250xtitan
Active member
Someone should ban these azzholes....they owe what ~400k in product to customers around the country.
Pelfreybilt Off-Road ::: Product Info, Sales, Support, Etc.
- Thread starter pelfreybilt
- Start date
bkg
Explorer
I have zero dog in this hunt.
But I read all 75+ pages last night. It’s about 2% fact and 98% group think and speculation.
It’s gotten to the point of people who were bringing rational comments were immediately attacked by the speculators for not fitting a the narrative.
Let’s not turn this place into that same thing. Ban or not, that’s up to the mods. My hope is that the mob mentality doesn’t spread to a good forum and that people wait until actual facts are released to form an opinion.
In the mean time, other vendors have stepped up their game to help the people stuck with trying to recoup dollars, which is cool to see.
Tex68w
Beach Bum
I don't see how anyone in their right mind could protect them, it's glaringly obvious what they did and the stunt they pulled. If you for one second think that they are honest people who deserve to be treated fairly then you are either a product homer/sucker or a close personal friend which is also alarming. They knew what they were doing, they mismanaged funds on a monumental level and then they blamed "investors" and their actual customers instead of coming out and taking credit for everything in full. Retracting your statement days later doesn't take it back or make things right, it just reinforces the narrative and shows that their true colors were evident in their first statement. They mishandled this entire ******** show from the very beginning and now they are tucking their tales to turn and run, CH. 7 bankruptcy, changing of legal names, etc. puts the writing on the wall.
To allow people like that to continue to participate within a community where they defrauded so many and to such a high degree of effectiveness is not only wrong, but it's against everything that a community like this and other similar communities represent and stand for.
To allow people like that to continue to participate within a community where they defrauded so many and to such a high degree of effectiveness is not only wrong, but it's against everything that a community like this and other similar communities represent and stand for.
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
I agree with @bkg, no need to replicate the TW vitriol here. Some of the timeline does seem off, but there's always 3 sides to every story. In this case those are Pelfreys' version, the customers' version and the truth.
None-the-less, anyone in their right mind will seek reimbursement and recover their money rather than buy into the "family" nonsense Tyler and Satin keep pushing. If there's something more criminal to it than just running out of money and panicking it'll catch up to them.
One thing that may be a positive outcome is the increasingly common practice of paying 100% upfront for a long lead time custom product may be finally realized as stupid. I don't expect a shop to work on a promise, but why everyone was so willing to give them money for something they might finish in 3 months is beyond me. A deposit to start and full payment on delivery is typical for most things.
None-the-less, anyone in their right mind will seek reimbursement and recover their money rather than buy into the "family" nonsense Tyler and Satin keep pushing. If there's something more criminal to it than just running out of money and panicking it'll catch up to them.
One thing that may be a positive outcome is the increasingly common practice of paying 100% upfront for a long lead time custom product may be finally realized as stupid. I don't expect a shop to work on a promise, but why everyone was so willing to give them money for something they might finish in 3 months is beyond me. A deposit to start and full payment on delivery is typical for most things.
Last edited:
bkg
Explorer
Hence my point. You have come to a conclusion based on what facts, specifically? The changing of names was never validated in 75+ pages of thread on TW. But people are running with it like it's Gospel truth.
You've also latched onto the "anyone who defends them is complicit!" story as well.
This is the largest problem with social media - people refuse to wait for facts... facts aren't fun... they don't feed emotion... they don't feed a narrative... they don't make us feel good/vindicated/etc.
The blaming of customers, as an example, is a clear manipulation of what was actually stated on their now infamous facebook post... The reality is that social media matters... and a group of vocal haters can cause a major issue for small companies. Happens ALL THE TIME, whether justified or not. So if they were in a precarious situation, social media sentiment absolutely could impact a go-forward strategy.
Point is - NONE OF US KNOW THE TRUTH... But too many of us are all too happy to crucify people on a moments notice... because it's more fun and emotionally gratifying to join the mob than it is to wait, listen, dig for facts and form an informed opinion.
So let it play out... if it was intentional, that will come to the surface... but if it wasn't... then I would also ask who amongst us would be the first to admit fault and do what ever is needed to repair the internet mob damage... I suspect not a single person will step up to the plate of helping repair reputational damage they helped cause...
bkg
Explorer
This is a conundrum.... Consider the person who commits to buying something, the vendor spends $1500 building something and the buyer backs out or, worse, files a claim to get out of having to buy said product. That will kill a small business in a hurry...
Read some posts where some vendors have required 50% down and up to a 50% cancellation fee as well... that's probably the best all around solution for managing risk....
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Custom fabricators, really all contractors, for ages have figured out a way to balance it. When you commission a carpenter to build a set of cabinets for your kitchen or a welder to make you stair railings they'll take a non-refundable deposit to start. Otherwise how can you guarantee they'll do what you want or even do it at all?
Later, if you choose to not accept the final product they will have still built something they can sell and in those cases it's truly custom. In this case if someone gives a shop a deposit to build a bumper for a 05-15 Tacoma but later backs out they will sell it (maybe for even full price, thereby making a nicer profit) to someone without much problem. These products are fungible. Even if they are semi-custom, someone else is likely to want the same combination of grill hoops, recovery points, light mounts.
If it's a very small shop, I agree, they may not have the capital to stock all the material. In that case taking material deposit plus maybe some labor would be fair. If the shop buys the metal for you and they drop the ball you can then <in theory> ask them to give you the material you bought and take it another shop. If they have, like what seems to be the case here, use that material deposit for something else then that is clearly fraud and breach of contract. That's what happens when you have a roof done, you give them money to buy the material and the balance when they're done.
If a business like Pelyfreybilt can't afford to float stock month-to-month to fill orders then they are in fact already bankrupt. They were running a multi-million dollar fabrication business the same way a guy building bumpers in his garage would. Companies all the time have to manage supply chains, book and fill orders on a schedule to remain in the black. It's not easy, the ones who don't end up failing. It's about managing risk, both as the supplier and the customer.
By giving 100% upfront to something that is not stocked or not expected to be within 30 days the customer assumes 100% of the risk. Within 30 days you at least have consumer protection with FTC regulations and your bank & credit card company. My feeling is I'd never pay full price for something with a many week or even months lead time unless I was willing to consider the gamble of not having the money or the product.
bkg
Explorer
all true points!
I think it also speaks to the "too many options is not necessarily a good thing" idea as well - that kind of forces everything into a one-off...
tacollie
Glamper
I'm a small business owner. I have lots of friends who are small owners. One of which build really nice stuff for our trucks. He is 6 months out. You put 50% down and in 6 months you pay the other 50% and get a custom product. It gives responsibility to both parties. I don't get paying 100% up front.
They had a strong following and demand for their products. They had money coming in the door. Seems like bad money management to me.
As for their social media reaction it's not uncommon for a small business owner. I worked for a guy who would get online and tell the trolls how they were wrong about the business until he realized hard work and a good product speaks louder than the internet. There will always be people in the internet telling you what you are doing wrong.
Notify the mods. It's not the first time they have had to deal with a bad vendor and it won't be the last. It happens.
They had a strong following and demand for their products. They had money coming in the door. Seems like bad money management to me.
As for their social media reaction it's not uncommon for a small business owner. I worked for a guy who would get online and tell the trolls how they were wrong about the business until he realized hard work and a good product speaks louder than the internet. There will always be people in the internet telling you what you are doing wrong.
Notify the mods. It's not the first time they have had to deal with a bad vendor and it won't be the last. It happens.
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Built-to-order isn't the same as custom built. The majority of the industry of course can't be like ARB, who actually stocks tens or hundreds of an individual part number. But that doesn't mean each bumper is actually a one-off, truly made custom for you truck. The business model is to have several standard designs and manage the build schedule to run a full backlog and material supply. Some shops do build a few typical bumpers to stock and if you want something different you get put into a cue.
The closest comparison I can think of is bicycle frames. You have 3 major choices. Full production, e.g. the Treks of the world. You get what they're selling, but it's right away. Semi-custom which have a catalog of frames with fixed dimensions but that you can customize with bottle mounts before they build it and paint it your color. A good shop (say Gunnar or REEB) might take a month or whatever. Then there's full custom (like Waterford, which sells the Gunnar) where the builder will measure you, cut tubes to the fraction of an inch to fit you perfectly. That could take a year or more to get. There are some true custom fabricators, but Pelfreybilt wasn't, they weren't building race trucks with 100% custom stuff.
Last edited:
phsycle
Adventurer
That was the thought that crossed my mind. I've not looked at the company's books, nor know much about them. But it's like some of these homebuilders and trades that are struggling and closing doors, while the industry is booming. Most grow too fast and sell themselves out of business. Along with living lavish lifestyles. That's a combo for trouble.
phsycle
Adventurer
I didn't know they were asking for 100% up front. No way, no how. I don't think I would do that with a relative I trust. Stuff happens.
Speaking of trust, I wonder why these investors pulled out (I didn't read the whole TW thread). I know some VC guys and they're not likely to get spooked by some social media posts by random people. They do get spooked by how the lead characters of the business runs the show. I have a suspicion they felt something was off with the Pelfrey's themselves, not the business. I don't think there is any justification for them to blame other people for the investors pulling out (even if that was the investors' excuse to the Pelfrey's).
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
It's repeated many times overs in all businesses. Some figure it out, some don't. I've worked for and dealt with as a customer both types. It does seem fairly common in 4wd circles for a small company to over extend or fail to adapt their business plan if/when they grow. But it's also a tough spot if you do become popular to stay small by raising prices, running long lead times or refusing orders since those things may lead to you losing your reputation and status.
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
There's more to it than just that. They were asking for 100% payment to develop a bumper, so it was at best a questionable situation (e.g. taking an order vs. seeking R&D development money). Several vendors do ask for payment with a stated lead time like 12 weeks, it wasn't just Pelfreybilt
That's the speculation where the timeline starts to diverge. Things like bankruptcy filings were dated during the time they were asking for patience and not dispute charges. Facts are flimsy at this point, but it does sound like "seeking investors" was a cover story. Perhaps they were trying to get their bank to extend a loan or increase a credit limit, something where cash on hand or flow would make a huge difference and the various refunds would have been draining their account balance.
Last edited:
bkg
Explorer
I highly suspect the investors were not VC folks... at least not VC from the larger/popular firms I'm familiar with in the tech industry. I could certainly see "an investor" getting spooked by a significant downward trend of public sentiment... but likely only as an attribute of other data points they likely would review. Some bad publicity likely, to your point, would not trump a solid business model...