Recovery how-not-to
- Thread starter Spikepretorius
- Start date
Antichrist
Expedition Leader
Generally the good samaritan laws protect non-professionals providing aid without pay. They do vary some, state to state, and there have been changes in recent years that I haven't kept abreast of. I have no idea how they would apply to vehicle damage.
In general I would say decline any offer of remuneration.
In general I would say decline any offer of remuneration.
R_Lefebvre
Expedition Leader
This is a tough problem. It's really too bad that society has come to this. 
I got my truck stuck when I first got it, and some guy in a pickup truck gave me a tug. I was a little ticked though, because once I was out, he backed up for some reason and hit my bumper, taking out a light. I didn't even mention it, but other people may have done differently.
Last winter I came upon a modern car, might have been a Prius, with nothing to hook up to, and couldn't even get to the underside because of the snow, so I just didn't bother. Just not worth it.
I also found a Kurbmaster van minorly stuck in a ditch. Wrapped my tree strap around his bumper and pulled him out. It was an industrial laundry/door mat service, and he tossed me a nice industrial door mat as thanks, which now resides in my shop.
Another time I found two ladies and two girls in a Caravan in Algonquin Park with a flat tire. I changed it for them, and they offered me money but I refused and just told them to Pay it Forward.
I wanted to post an example to ask a question about a recovery, but don't have my photos on this computer. Not sure if I should start another thread. This spring, I was out with a bunch of guys, and we came upon a flooded section of the trail that was much deeper than normal. I'd never been, and the "leader" was too meek to forbid anybody to attempt it. So, some hero decided to give it a shot even though others knew it was hopeless. Well, about 1/8th mile into the flooded trail (it was about 1/4 mile long) he stalled it in the water about 30-36" deep. Now he's out about 600 feet, and I guess we were obligated to rescue him.
How in the hell do you do that?
We ended up sending another truck in after him, and that went horribly awry. He did many things wrong, including driving backwards pulling the guy by his winch cable. He ended up driving off the built up road bed and into even deeper water. He ended up with water in his JK over the dashboard. He ended up with a ruined rad fan, airbag, whole buncha stuff, surprising it wasn't worse.
Took 3 hours in total to get everybody out.
Is it ever acceptable to leave somebody's truck to the vultures if they've taken an unreasonable risk? I refused to help with the recovery. I've driven through 36" water before, but I'm not going to park my truck in it while we try to extract somebody.
We all knew it was impossible, the guy even joked "Well, I need a new engine anyway..." before he headed in. And it was WAY longer than a winch line would reach. It's not like we had all decided to do it, and one guy got stuck. The rest of us were going to take a bypass, but this one guy went for it...
I got my truck stuck when I first got it, and some guy in a pickup truck gave me a tug. I was a little ticked though, because once I was out, he backed up for some reason and hit my bumper, taking out a light. I didn't even mention it, but other people may have done differently.
Last winter I came upon a modern car, might have been a Prius, with nothing to hook up to, and couldn't even get to the underside because of the snow, so I just didn't bother. Just not worth it.
I also found a Kurbmaster van minorly stuck in a ditch. Wrapped my tree strap around his bumper and pulled him out. It was an industrial laundry/door mat service, and he tossed me a nice industrial door mat as thanks, which now resides in my shop.
Another time I found two ladies and two girls in a Caravan in Algonquin Park with a flat tire. I changed it for them, and they offered me money but I refused and just told them to Pay it Forward.
I wanted to post an example to ask a question about a recovery, but don't have my photos on this computer. Not sure if I should start another thread. This spring, I was out with a bunch of guys, and we came upon a flooded section of the trail that was much deeper than normal. I'd never been, and the "leader" was too meek to forbid anybody to attempt it. So, some hero decided to give it a shot even though others knew it was hopeless. Well, about 1/8th mile into the flooded trail (it was about 1/4 mile long) he stalled it in the water about 30-36" deep. Now he's out about 600 feet, and I guess we were obligated to rescue him.
How in the hell do you do that?
We ended up sending another truck in after him, and that went horribly awry. He did many things wrong, including driving backwards pulling the guy by his winch cable. He ended up driving off the built up road bed and into even deeper water. He ended up with water in his JK over the dashboard. He ended up with a ruined rad fan, airbag, whole buncha stuff, surprising it wasn't worse.
Took 3 hours in total to get everybody out.
Is it ever acceptable to leave somebody's truck to the vultures if they've taken an unreasonable risk? I refused to help with the recovery. I've driven through 36" water before, but I'm not going to park my truck in it while we try to extract somebody.
We all knew it was impossible, the guy even joked "Well, I need a new engine anyway..." before he headed in. And it was WAY longer than a winch line would reach. It's not like we had all decided to do it, and one guy got stuck. The rest of us were going to take a bypass, but this one guy went for it...
Yes, but no. One problem is that the law varies from state to state. I could draft a release that would work fine in CA, but I couldn't recommend it anywhere else.
But more importantly, this isn't a job for lawyers. Its a personal judgment thing. If the person you're considering rescuing seems shifty, or worried about damage to their car, or is "stranded" on a public road, you might just as well stay with them until the wrecker arrives, or simply help them call for help. Your gut is your friend on this one: If its telling you that you might need a lawyer-drafted release of liability, don't do the rescue.
Interesting points. Of course even if you're dealing with a pal, you rig things up incorrectly and somebody dies or is mamed as a result, chances are you may be looking down the barrel of at the very least getting sued, or at the very worst manslaughter or something...?? It may boil down to being an accident, but there are plenty of motorists who at one point were the cause of a vehicle accident, only to still be dealing with damage litigation years later. I don't consider this point (and subtopic as a whole) to be in any way insignificant as it should be the very first thing you consider before ever getting out your gear to help somebody...
Maybe I'm just paranoid.
Spence
Maybe I'm just paranoid.
Spence
cruiseroutfit
Well-known member
I would just be very clear that you are offering this service as a helpful Samaritan and not as a paid professional. Make it very clear that additional damage to the vehicle could happen as result of the recovery effort. If they seem apprehensive or overly detailed about an damage that might occur, tell them to hire a wrecker service that may or may not have more damage to mitigate potential damage.
Speaking of a professional recovery. They make it very clear in situations like these that they are not responsible to loss or damage as a result of the recovery efforts. They will do their best to mitigate it but every situation presents its own sets of variables.
I would like to think that anyone stuck 'off-road' is widely aware of the damages that could result of a recovery of their vehicle. However its not out of the question to think that a stranded motorist stuck in a snow bank off the side of the interstate could assume your willing to not only help them for free but also guarantee they get their vehicle back on the highway better than it was before they careened off the road.
Speaking of a professional recovery. They make it very clear in situations like these that they are not responsible to loss or damage as a result of the recovery efforts. They will do their best to mitigate it but every situation presents its own sets of variables.
I would like to think that anyone stuck 'off-road' is widely aware of the damages that could result of a recovery of their vehicle. However its not out of the question to think that a stranded motorist stuck in a snow bank off the side of the interstate could assume your willing to not only help them for free but also guarantee they get their vehicle back on the highway better than it was before they careened off the road.
off-roader
Expedition Leader
Interesting divergence from the original topic.:ylsmoke:
I haven't been fortunate enough to have run into a stranger on the side of the road who needs help in this manner but I have recovered friends both on and off road.
I pretty much always try to give them the pro's and con's that may occur from any recovery I'm attempting and in most cases it's as has been noted... they'd much rather have the potential damage and be recovered than stay in the situation they're in. Otherwise I don't recover them as I leave the choice to them.
That said it's definitely not unheard of for someone in my neck of the woods (SF Bay Area) to try to sue someone who's rescued them.
At a local 4x4 OHV area (Hollister) the rangers there no longer recover stuck vehicles like they used to (they winched me out before when I got stuck in their mud pit). The reason as passed on to me by others was because someone tried to sue them for damages resulting from a recovery.
If this is true, it's a classic example of a Bonehead wheeler ruining a good thing. They deserve to be publicly flogged IMHO.
On a side note, a buddy of mine in his 95 Montero pulled a Semi that was stuck in the Sierra snow. There are pictures and witnesses.:Wow1:
I haven't been fortunate enough to have run into a stranger on the side of the road who needs help in this manner but I have recovered friends both on and off road.
I pretty much always try to give them the pro's and con's that may occur from any recovery I'm attempting and in most cases it's as has been noted... they'd much rather have the potential damage and be recovered than stay in the situation they're in. Otherwise I don't recover them as I leave the choice to them.
That said it's definitely not unheard of for someone in my neck of the woods (SF Bay Area) to try to sue someone who's rescued them.
At a local 4x4 OHV area (Hollister) the rangers there no longer recover stuck vehicles like they used to (they winched me out before when I got stuck in their mud pit). The reason as passed on to me by others was because someone tried to sue them for damages resulting from a recovery.
If this is true, it's a classic example of a Bonehead wheeler ruining a good thing. They deserve to be publicly flogged IMHO.
On a side note, a buddy of mine in his 95 Montero pulled a Semi that was stuck in the Sierra snow. There are pictures and witnesses.:Wow1:
michaelgroves
Explorer
Being a Good Samaritan has two big downsides - incurring damage to your own vehicle or equipment (or person), and getting sued for damage to someone else. I guess you weigh this up on a case by case basis, against the warm glow of having helped someone who needed it. Or, if one has a more analytical approach, perhaps on the premise that we are all better off if at least some of us are Good Samaritans.
The other side of the coin, btw, which Rob alluded to, is that when you accept help from someone, it comes with risk too. Competent or not, he may do damage to someone or something, and you may end up bearing the loss one way or another.
I generally err on the side of being helpful, but as other posters have suggested, gut instinct shouldn't be ignored. Also, if I suspect alcohol was a factor contributing to the problem, I am a whole lot less sympathetic!
If I were travelling with someone, I would probably feel bound to help, but that doesn't extend to taking unreasonable risks with my own life or property. Also, if someone says they are going to do something really foolhardy, I would probably tell them in advance that they are on their own. (I might still end up giving what assistance I can, though - I've done lots of foolhardy things before, too!).
The other side of the coin, btw, which Rob alluded to, is that when you accept help from someone, it comes with risk too. Competent or not, he may do damage to someone or something, and you may end up bearing the loss one way or another.
I generally err on the side of being helpful, but as other posters have suggested, gut instinct shouldn't be ignored. Also, if I suspect alcohol was a factor contributing to the problem, I am a whole lot less sympathetic!
If I were travelling with someone, I would probably feel bound to help, but that doesn't extend to taking unreasonable risks with my own life or property. Also, if someone says they are going to do something really foolhardy, I would probably tell them in advance that they are on their own. (I might still end up giving what assistance I can, though - I've done lots of foolhardy things before, too!).
R_Lefebvre
Expedition Leader
Funrover
Expedition Leader
I have a song for this situation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDY6bWT5oTM&feature=related
I'll provide a "hey watch this" recovery for you guys.
But it's a long story that needs background info besides just pics. Last weekend we had a BBQ down at the water. Lots of people. Our lake has been dropping at a staggering pace, but the upside is we often get great sandy beaches. But, that sand is unforgiving and will become quick sand in a heartbeat. You have to be careful driving on it. I have pulled out many people and seen many more not paying attention or know where to drive and hit a sink hole.
So, we have a bunch of people at the water, I leave on a boat to go watch the fireworks up river. When I get back it's dark, I can make out a truck close to the water, I say to a buddy, WTH is that truck doing so close to the water. When I get on land, it appears all hell had broken loose. No less than 4 trucks stuck at one time.
The story is one of the women there driving a lifted jeep decided to leave via going forward thru the water and around, instead of just backing up like a wise person would have done. She sinks a little and gets stuck. My dad said they were getting a chain out to hook up when the woman's son said to pull it out from the front. Conventional wisdom would have said come out the way you came in. Plus going from the front meant getting closer to the water. Sure enough, when the other jeep approached from the front to hook up, it sank. Now two cars stuck. Now, these are small light vehicles, get a normal truck to pull them out, they are stuck that bad. No, the guy with the 4wd diesel Megacab there pulls around to get the 2nd jeep out. He gets that one out, then goes for the first jeep and he sinks. Then some guy with a 4wd lifted dually tries to get the Megacab out, he gets stuck but does get the megacab out. Somehow the dually gets out but the megacab gets stuck again. Total CF going on.
This is about when I disembark off the boat. I look around and the scene is pretty indescribable. I call it cowboy chaos, where everyone wants to be a hero but nobody is actually thinking about the best approach. Everyone wants to play with the toys and isn't concerned with success in the recovery, they just want to try and pull the person out.
Most everyone had been drinking all day long it was now 11pm. I looked around and saw every single thing you shouldn't be doing in a recovery. I shook my head, got in my truck and left. I had everything in my truck to get them out but I wasn't about to step in that mess. They had torn up the beach pulling other trucks out, ruts everywhere. Luckily it was our property and not someone else's but still it frustrated me. It will be bladed with the tractor and smoothed out when the water drops another foot or so at the end of this week.
So with that said, here are the pics I took.
The first thing that comes to mind when I got off the boat and looking at everyone scrambling to get to use their toys, NOT ONE OF YOU HAS A SHOVEL? They spent time to go back to the shop and get a winch for my dads jeep, but no one is digging trying to get the dodge out. It's buried to the rails. Needs at least 3:1 to get out.
So they think they can pull it out with a 8K winch on the jeep, they did use a snatch block but that is only 16K. Note that the line is not even spooled out 20ft, they have some concoction going on at the chain, not sure if it's a comealong or what. NO dampener for if the line snaps. It gets better...
Since the jeep was not heavy enough, they decide to tie to a dodge quadcab...sideways hooked to either the step bars or the frame itself
The truck still slid sideways, so they hooked on another vehicle...drum roll, some nissan murano or something like that. I am telling you, everyone wanted in on this, everyone wanted to play johnny hero.:REOutShootinghunter
This is all I saw before leaving. Usually I help. But this was ridiculous. Everyone wanted to play with the toys, no one really cared about actually getting the guy out that was stuck. Maybe they did, but it didn't seem like they were thinking too hard about what the best approach was.
I came back the next day because I had to break down my camp I had set up. The carnage was pretty amazing to the beach.
Yes, that is a tractor that is stuck as well. This is where it gets better
See those blade marks in the sand? They thought they could scoop out sand in front of the truck, the tractor started sinking. They couldn't back up so they decided to pull forward, sunk. Luckily they stopped before the tires got buried. The other idea I heard going around was they were gonna take the bucket and lift up the front bumper....:Wow1: ******!!!
We finally had to bring in the heavy hitter, the backhoe.
At first he was pulling parallel with the ground, it wasn't gonna budge, he had to pull up high at and angle to get the truck up and out.
18hrs later it was out. I did have the guy that was stuck smooth out his ruts, but it's still gonna take some grading with the blade to get it back to looking normal. I also reprimanded my dad for letting such a bunch of dumbsh!t happen. They are really lucky no one got hurt.
So, wargame this, besides not being an idiot and driving heavy vehicles onto quicksand to get smaller ones out what would you have done to get the megacab out?
My thinking was, take 15mins after the truck got stuck and think for a while. Don't haul @ss to your tool box to get chains and start hooking up shackles.
Next, get some damn shovels and dig till you have blisters. Everyone just though, hell we can pull it out. The truck tires were stuck it bog, suction was a huge factor. dig and get some boards.
They had a good 30,000lbs of vehicle weight btwn my truck, the dually, and another. Daisy chain those together for an anchor, then try winching out. Spool the winch out all the way, use a dampener blanket over the line. I still don't think 16K would have got this truck out, it's a good 9,000lbs stuck to the axles.
If that doesn't work, call it a day and get the backhoe.
Or, don't get stuck.
gabepari
Explorer
Back to the vehicles with no "good" recovery points. Lots of people focus too heavily on finding a "single" strong attachment point. Moral issues not withstanding, assume you need to pull out a minivan that doesn't have an ARB bumper with big macho attachment points. Start looping straps around anything and everything on the under carriage (within reason ) Think multiple anchors people. Determine your angle of pull and keep all the angles between anchors under 90 degrees.
We've rigged for low angle scree slope evacs, with 3 attendants, a litter and patient, with nothing more than scrub brush and a few nuts in the rock for anchors. It took a whole lot of scrub brush to build the anchor "system", but that's what we were after, a "system" not a single anchor.
I would venture to guess I could recover a minivan with the gear I carry in my daypack :coffeedrink: And I carry a whole lot more in the car.
) Think multiple anchors people. Determine your angle of pull and keep all the angles between anchors under 90 degrees.We've rigged for low angle scree slope evacs, with 3 attendants, a litter and patient, with nothing more than scrub brush and a few nuts in the rock for anchors. It took a whole lot of scrub brush to build the anchor "system", but that's what we were after, a "system" not a single anchor.
I would venture to guess I could recover a minivan with the gear I carry in my daypack :coffeedrink: And I carry a whole lot more in the car.
Antichrist
Expedition Leader
I didn't go back and reread your post, but from what I recall, the first person who tried to recover the Jeep made a fundamental, and all too common, mistake. He was in a rush.
He had already driven within winching distance, and was still mobile. He should have just winched the Jeep back, disconnected, backed up another 80 feet or so, re-rigged, and winched again, until he got the Jeep out.
R_Lefebvre
Expedition Leader
Yes, I agree. I told him two thing: Don't drive backwards with the winch cable, and don't use too much power in reverse because the ring and pinion aren't as strong in reverse and he already had at least 35" tires on it. He did both, and backed right off the road bed. I don't know why he didn't just use the other Jeep as an anchor and winch himself back onto the road. I think maybe he didn't have his winch control set up.
A big part of the problem was it was 40F and windy, and the water was freezing, and nobody wanted to get wet. And actually the worst part was the driver of the first Jeep pretty much didn't get wet, he sat on his hood the whole time. The whole thing was definitely a case of too much haste and not enough speed. The rescuer was new, and young, and just didn't make good decisions once he was out there. Me being new, just kept my mouth shut and let all the experienced guys run the show and...
A big part of the problem was it was 40F and windy, and the water was freezing, and nobody wanted to get wet. And actually the worst part was the driver of the first Jeep pretty much didn't get wet, he sat on his hood the whole time. The whole thing was definitely a case of too much haste and not enough speed. The rescuer was new, and young, and just didn't make good decisions once he was out there. Me being new, just kept my mouth shut and let all the experienced guys run the show and...
M
MuddyOval
Guest
Boy, I wouldn't have even attempted that unless I had a set of chest-high waders in my kit.
From the look of the terrain and vegetation there it looks like more of a wetland than a bona fide trail. Even if it is a trail, I think I'd opt to keep my truck out of there.
From the look of the terrain and vegetation there it looks like more of a wetland than a bona fide trail. Even if it is a trail, I think I'd opt to keep my truck out of there.
