ruffled feathers

[SeaRubi]

I apologize to the group here for ruffling everybody's feathers. I said as much to Don in his thread so I didn't feel I needed to fling more around over there.

If you knew me in person you'd know I'm not the most diplomatic person you'd ever met. Something about spending a significant portion of childhood in Texas guaranteed that, I suppose. I'm a crazy, ornery, opinionated guy and will be the first to run a cable or drive back somewhere in the middle of the night for a can of fuel or a part if that's what's needed to get somebody back home.

What i don't have is any tolerance for people who spend 30k on their rig's drivetrain and then feel it gives them a right to belittle someone else for not having spent the same, and not being too excited about feeling like they need to make a similar financial commitment before they could return on a trip back out. I find that elitism is wheeling the same trail with my stock vehicle, even if I had to pull cable once or twice.

Everybody gets home on my watch, always, regardless of what they showed up with to run and without attitude, or making them feel underprepared because they bit off more than they could chew. That's how folks learn and direct experience is the best teacher. Unfortunately, to me, I don't see that same sentiment in a significant percentage of the jeep community, and I don't take trips with most jeep clubs for precisely this reason. A good portion seem more interested in impressing each other with the parts list on their rigs than being on a trip and that's fine. It's just not for me.

A group of folks who tend to look up to one another will, after a time, all want what the other has and they don't. I reserve my right to call an orange an orange and an apple an apple. I maintain that you don't need a rock crawler style machine to take "expedition" style trips. They are two different creatures. An overland style rig is more focused on having the necessary systems in place for survival - sanitation, cooking, shelter, navigation, communications, and a base level of comfort - an even wider concept open to interpretation!

It's not about the investment I have an issue with - who knows how much I've spent on this as a hobby and on how many different trucks. It's just the attitude that you need a monster drivetrain in your rig to hit the dirt that irritates me, personally, and I'm sorry to let it get under my skin and take it out on Don's build thread.

Back to your drinks :coffeedrink:

cheers
-isaac

 

[Scott Brady]

I maintain that you don't need a rock crawler style machine to take "expedition" style trips.
cheers
-isaac

And you Sir, are 100% correct.

Give me a Jeep Patriot with a fridge and roof tent, and a year off of work with enough money for fuel and misc., and I would take that any day over a Unicat in the driveway... Period.

Are you show or go - that is the question

And there is nothing wrong with having an awesome built truck, and even not using it, but respect the fact that others might choose a different horse. How boring would it be if we all had TJ Rubicons with 33s. Spice it up!:roost:

 

[BigAl]

And you Sir, are 100% correct.

Give me a Jeep Patriot with a fridge and roof tent, and a year off of work with enough money for fuel and misc., and I would take that any day over a Unicat in the driveway... Period.

Take money out of the equation, if you could travel the world carefree for 1 year, the Patriot and the Unicat are both fueled and loaded in the driveway. You can only take one. Which?

Arguments that "stock is better" have the exact same ring to me as "built is better" No need to rain on anybodies parade, which is what ruined the other thread and started this one.

 

[ntsqd]

Will an RTT fit on a 2CV?

 

[Martyn]

Will an RTT fit on a 2CV?

mais naturellement mon petit chou

 

[kcowyo]

What i don't have is any tolerance for people who spend 30k on their rig's drivetrain and then feel it gives them a right to belittle someone else for not having spent the same, and not being too excited about feeling like they need to make a similar financial commitment before they could return on a trip back out.

I don't see that same sentiment in a significant percentage of the jeep community, and I don't take trips with most jeep clubs for precisely this reason. A good portion seem more interested in impressing each other with the parts list on their rigs than being on a trip and that's fine. It's just not for me.

I was reading that thread last night as the bantering went back & forth. While it seemed a little out of place in his build thread, I am in complete agreement with what you have written here this morning and I have experienced some of that prejudice myself, locally.

We have a little 4x4 club here in town. One of the head honchos, who I like personally, but he's a bit of a windbag, took time off one day from patting himself on the back long enough to espouse his unsolicited opinion on my tire selection. After inviting me on a trail run with them, he looked at my '85 Toyota pickup and said,

"Those BFG KO's suck. You'll never get anywhere with those. You should get some Toyo MT's."

Then he hopped in his sunshiney yellow, superbuilt Unlimited and drove off.

Needless to say, his brash tactics fell flat with me. With no knowledge of the type of trips I take, which go beyond the county line and the once a year pilgrimage to the Easter Jeep Safari like his own travels, he felt perfectly justified making such ludicrous statements to me. He's one who feels there is only one way to build a trail vehicle and anything less is subpar.

It says a lot more about him, than what he drives. I think his arrogance and choice of vehicle (on 35" tires) are merely a coincidence. And yet two years later, every time I see him, he still asks me, "When are you going to come out on a run with us?"

....Uh, as soon as there is enough room on the trail for me and my truck and you and your ego, Dave....

 

[robert j. yates]

It's just the attitude that you need a monster drivetrain in your rig to hit the dirt that irritates me, personally, and I'm sorry to let it get under my skin and take it out on Don's build thread.

The biggest issue I have with your posts are that you don't know the person and started right in on him on your soapbox before anyone else got a word in edgewise.

I've met Don once at the Off Road Expo and we have talked over the past several years on various forums....his plan is quite logical and somewhat similar to mine. I used to rockcrawl extensively and my rig was re-oriented from that to an expedition rig. I was not about to lose money on a previous investment same as him so frankly, in some areas it is way way overbuilt. That doesn't make he or I for that matter, wrong. Maybe you were just plain jealous?

 

[durango_60]

I'll pipe in and say that I agree that your rant seemed out of line. The guy just stated his intentions and didn't belittle anyone with a less built rig in any way that I could see. Perhaps you've got some pent up frustration from some other jack@$$ jeep owner that has given you grief in the past.

I do agree with your statements and generalities of the jeep community, but give the guy some breathing room as he is trying to reform his ways...

If you are truly bent on stirring up crap with people who have a penchant for overbuilding a rig it would be more amusing to me if you would give Scott Brady a little grief:ylsmoke:

 

[JeepinBear]

I think his arrogance and choice of vehicle (on 35" tires) are merely a coincidence.

:clapsmile

Whew...that was a close one. I resemble that remark as I drive a "sunshiney yellow overbuilt Jeep TJ Unlimited on 35" tires" and I'd hate to think someone would judge me by that and equate it with arrogance

Me...I'm a firm believer in everyone has the rig that is right for him (or her...sorry ladies, or it...sorry its)

I'm not a dyed in the wool Jeep fanatic. I drove a Ford fullsize before the Jeep and a Nissan before it. The Jeep just works for me right now. I've posted other threads about numeous other vehicles I am interested in too.

I think I am probably one of the guys who was accused of getting my feathers "ruffled" on the other thread. Not really my feelings though.

I too think the "stock is better than built" or "built is better than stock" arguments are a bunch of hooey...it's a matter of personal preference. To each his own.

P.s. I don't think SeaRubi owes any apologies...as I mentioned on the thread, it appeared everything was working itself out. They were each throwing in some nice comments to try and bring it back to a more civil level.

 

[JeepinBear]

mais naturellement mon petit chou

trop de culture pour ce forum mon petit aubergine

 

[computeruser]

I guess it all comes down to what you're aiming to do!

My argument in favor of maintaining as much stock stuff as possible has always been one of resupply, not inherent superiority of OEM stuff. After driving an MG when I was younger, I got tired of having to mail order all my parts, or having to drive across town to the one import parts store in the Detroit metro area every time I needed some common service item. The ability to pull into (or limp or walk) any Jeep dealership and walk out with the parts I need in a pinch is very appealing to me. Same with a scrap yard or whatever else. Custom and aftermarket parts, though nifty, require additional planning. This may or may not be an issue, depending on the goals of your vehicle and travels.

Now I come at this all from the position of a being a dreamer - I dream about having the time and funds to go explore interesting places with my vehicle. As it is, its primary function is to get me to/from work. So my philosophy is very much just that - a philosophy, based on thought and theory. But it feels like sound logic to me.

As for the thread being referenced, here's my take:

1. I don't know what the true intended use of the vehicle is, and whether large tires and super-stout axles are physically required. But...
2. The guy already owns the axles, may already be intimately familiar with their workings and needs, and would likely lose his @$$ selling them, so why not reuse them?


In general, I would like to see more emphasis on the use and less on the equipment being used. Now, I completely understand that we focus on the equipment because that is something we can do at work, at home, in the car, with friends, and when reading catalogs while sitting on the can. Actually using the equipment, that necessarily occurs less frequently for most of us.

I also believe that if more of us focused on getting the best service and longevity out of the OEM crap we have already, rather than convincing ourselves that we can't leave the pavement with our Jeeps until we've spent another $5-10k on upgrades, we'd all be happier. I know I would. As someone with minimal true 'wheeling experience, I know that the constant refrain that my OEM parts are going to break and leave me stranded has played on my mind. This (hopefully) isn't true, but I know it has prevented me from having the guts to go out and try exploring places and attending events that would probably have been a blast to have done and that my vehicle would probably have been perfectly capable of handling.

At the end of the day it seems like the aftermarket and the 4x4 magazines are the only ones who really benefit from this fixation on upgrades...

 

[kcowyo]

:clapsmile

Whew...that was a close one. I resemble that remark as I drive a "sunshiney yellow overbuilt Jeep TJ on 35" tires" and I'd hate to think someone would judge me by that and equate it with arrogance

My initial suspicions were confirmed when he traded in his yellow Unlimited, for a white JK. And now you can hear him boast about how his JK is superior in all ways to his previous Unlimited. He's just a blowhard when it comes to his Jeeps, otherwise he's a nice guy.

But it's that type of arrogance that gets me. He would talk your ear off for an hour about how great his Unlimited was. But the minute the JK hit the lots, it was instantly worlds better than the Unlimited.

And just for the record Bear, I won't judge you as arrogant based on what you drive. I'll wait till we meet on a trail or at a campfire before making my full assessment.

 

[JeepinBear]

At the end of the day it seems like the aftermarket and the 4x4 magazines are the only ones who really benefit from this fixation on upgrades...

Ah, but then we are discounting the benefit of the consumer who experiences the joy of planning, researching, purchasing (ok...maybe not so much), fabricating, installing, and using said upgrades. That is the illogical and intangible side of this life we choose.
:victory:

 

[JeepinBear]

And just for the record Bear, I won't judge you as arrogant based on what you drive. I'll wait till we meet on a trail or at a campfire before making my full assessment.

Ditto my brutha!

 

[computeruser]

Ah, but then we are discounting the benefit of the consumer who experiences the joy of planning, researching, purchasing (ok...maybe not so much), fabricating, installing, and using said upgrades. That is the illogical and intangible side of this life we choose.
:victory:

Without a doubt. But doesn't it get excessive at some point?

I know I spend hours on this site every day here at work, buying things and envisioning changes and "upgrades" that I "need to make," and have yet to get a proper camping weekend in all year? Seems somewhat out of balance.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that and go back to enjoying my newfound "life is about experiences, not about things" mindset...