ruffled feathers

Scott Brady

Founder
BigAl said:
Take money out of the equation, if you could travel the world carefree for 1 year, the Patriot and the Unicat are both fueled and loaded in the driveway. You can only take one. Which?

Arguments that "stock is better" have the exact same ring to me as "built is better" No need to rain on anybodies parade, which is what ruined the other thread and started this one.

certainly. Neither are better if they remain unused. I do find that far more stock and lightly modified vehicles are actually used, while most heavily modified and expensive vehicle remain in the driveway. I expect there are many dynamics that contribute to that, but it likely comes down to priority and interest. Do you want the toys or the experiences? No doubt some can afford the time and funds to do both.
 

ntsqd

Heretic Car Camper
Martyn said:
mais naturellement mon petit chou
cabbage?
JeepinBear said:
trop de culture pour ce forum mon petit aubergine:p
Troppo tempo su babelfish appena di calcolare fuori che cosa tutto state dicendo :)


KC said it better than I ever could. Though he seems to have run into the stereotype of a "4x4 driver."
Wish that I had a 2CV. Well, no, not really. But it would be fun........
 
expeditionswest said:
certainly. Neither are better if they remain unused. I do find that far more stock and lightly modified vehicles are actually used, while most heavily modified and expensive vehicle remain in the driveway. I expect there are many dynamics that contribute to that, but it likely comes down to priority and interest. Do you want the toys or the experiences? No doubt some can afford the time and funds to do both.

When I first got my Jeep.....I had a ton of free time but not much money...something in the neighborhood of 9 weeks/yr paid time off on a single parent salary of $40K/year. I got real creative in both building my Jeep, buying parts for it and getting it out on the trails.

Fast forward 10 years to the present time which includes a change in employment, 5 less weeks a year in paid time off, more money but more job responsibility, a kid in college and a new wife. That pretty much results in a very capable Jeep that spends far to much time in the garage than it should.

Buying the AT Horizon did cure some of that however as my wife is more ameniable to going out with me now that she isn't sleeping in the dirt LOL......which brings me to an interesting point........if folks want to argue about built vs not built Jeeps or what have you, then they should be equally argumentative about using a trailer, Sportsmobile or Earthromer vs a tent to camp with.

To me...the entire discussion is pointless due to personal situations. As for what started all of this off.....I see no problem what so ever in somebody recycling high dollar equipment off a rockcrawler and swapping it onto an expediationary rig....even if they only get out once or twice a year.
 

Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
ntsqd said:
cabbage?

Troppo tempo su babelfish appena di calcolare fuori che cosa tutto state dicendo :)


KC said it better than I ever could. Though he seems to have run into the stereotype of a "4x4 driver."
Wish that I had a 2CV. Well, no, not really. But it would be fun........

petit chou -- little cabbage-- term of endearment
 

77blazerchalet

Former Chalet owner
SeaRubi said:
..the attitude that you need a monster drivetrain in your rig to hit the dirt that irritates me, personally,..
I figured those comments in the other thread weren't going to be well received. Good of you to explain it here, and I can identify in some way with what's behind it. Multiple years ago when I arrived at the parking area at the end of the navigable road to the east portal of the Alpine Tunnel in my 3 inch ground clearance VW GTI, I got more than one dirty look from the AWD Subaru & lifted 4x4 crowd parked there. What an eerie feeling, it wasn't such a bad road other than the detour around the old one lane RR bridge, and I knew what I was doing considering the road condition.

At least those folks were getting off the paved road, I really have to laugh at the efforts & bragging of the chrome plated monster 4x4s that never go off-pavement. Assuming I go with a small-ish SUV after I sell my Chalet, a nearly stock one will suit my purposes. Other guys may arrive at Pougkeepsie Gulch with the same-but-much-modded vehicle as mine, I'll just park at the bottom and watch them crawl up, and I'll have to follow them on my future Rokon 2x2 motorcycle. To each his own, I'm a cheapskate and might save myself some money and still accomplish nearly the same overall thrill ride.
 
77blazerchalet said:
I figured those comments in the other thread weren't going to be well received. Good of you to explain it here, and I can identify in some way with what's behind it. Multiple years ago when I arrived at the parking area at the end of the navigable road to the east portal of the Alpine Tunnel in my 3 inch ground clearance VW GTI, I got more than one dirty look from the AWD Subaru & lifted 4x4 crowd parked there. What an eerie feeling, it wasn't such a bad road other than the detour around the old one lane RR bridge, and I knew what I was doing considering the road condition.

At least those folks were getting off the paved road, I really have to laugh at the efforts & bragging of the chrome plated monster 4x4s that never go off-pavement. Assuming I go with a small-ish SUV after I sell my Chalet, a nearly stock one will suit my purposes. Other guys may arrive at Pougkeepsie Gulch with the same-but-much-modded vehicle as mine, I'll just park at the bottom and watch them crawl up, and I'll have to follow them on my future Rokon 2x2 motorcycle. To each his own, I'm a cheapskate and might save myself some money and still accomplish nearly the same overall thrill ride.

Man, it must take you quite a bit of time to type your posts with all of those links you always have in them. I love reading your posts though, if for nothing else, the reference material. Happy trails :smiley_drive:
 

77blazerchalet

Former Chalet owner
Backwoods Rambler said:
..love reading your posts though, if for nothing else, the reference material...
Wow, gosh, thanks! Been blessed with time ('til i start my business), good English skills, fast fingers and a photographic memory. Post #35 here for a view of my car on the west side of the Alpine Tunnel, didn't make it up to the aforementioned east side 'til 2001. The west side road road is a lot rockier this year, didn't make it beyond the water tank, thus the need for a real SUV.
 

Clark White

Explorer
Usually I don't encounter too much discrimination in my truck, but when I was at Uwharrie NF and drove most all of the trails there. I found a couple trails that ere difficult, but nothing that I would consider extreme, or as hard as I expected. I pulled into a gas station, and saw a nice, well built JK pulling out, so I flagged the guy down and asked him where I could find some hard trails (made no mention that I had already ran some). With his wife and kids along, he looked my truck up and down, looked me up and down, looked my truck up and down again, and said "your not going to try any of these trails in THAT are you?" I didn't know what to say, I was too shocked. I was in a good mood, having just ran some good trails, spent a couple hours evacuating a woman who had been thrown down a mountain by her horse, and wasn't going to let anything damper my mood. Light heartedly said I could keep up with him, he laughed and told me where to go, and I thanked him. I we pulled away, I could see him shaking his head at me. When I pulled out the map, the trails he said were the hardest (the ones I couldn't run in THAT rig), were the ones I had just ran and thought were too easy....:xxrotflma

By the same token, when I got my first Jeep CJ7, I would go along with, and often lead, some of the local Jeep group trips. I would be constantly told my "stock" (said with a sneer) Jeep would never make it. I even had them tell me that the trip I was going to lead couldn't POSSIBLY be a 3.5/4 (out of 5) trail because I could do it in a stock Jeep. Well just for the record, I always made it, and on that trip, many people with modified vehicles turned back because they were told it would be a 2.5 trail being lead by a stock Jeep. And yes, I got blamed for it being a 4, not a 2.5, even though the club President edited my e-mail to sat 2.5 instead of 4.0.
 

Big Daddy Chia

Adventurer
Man thanks for making me go back and read all that stuff. Now my 2 cents. I first started wheeling in 2001 when I bought mny brand new Xterra. I did a little work to it got it where I needed it as to be a off roader and daily driver. Problem was it seemed every trip I would go on, there would be quiet a few people who didnt think I could hang with them. My Xterra wasnt made for offroading. IFS sucked. You know all the usual bull**** from Jeep and older toyota owners. But I really didnt care what they thought. I like my Xterra and I wheeled with them anyway. And usually by the end of the day there attitudes had changed. Now I own a jeep and an Xterra. But becasue I own a cherokee I am still looked down upon by the "hardcore offroaders". I joined a local jeep club in Austin and pretty much did not renew my membership after the first year becasue of the attitude I got from not owning a wrangle of some type. The BNguy led me to this site and now I see more and more cool dual sport type vehicles that I would rather build up my XJ to do some rock crawling as well as back country wheeling. So in conclusion as a wise man named Rodney King once said. Cant we all just get a long.
 

Hilldweller

SE Expedition Society
There's even snobbery within the Wrangler community; Jeep-waves are often witheld for various reasons such as:
Sahara is inferior to Rubicon
JK is inferior to all previous models
Stock is inferior to built
White is a "girl's color"

And don't get me started about the snobbery against my buddy's FJ Cruiser. We were on a trail and came up on a built TJ that was trying to figure out what to do next. He pointed to Steve's FJC and said, "there's big rocks up there (waving up the trail); that thing (indicating the 'Yota) ain't gunna make it --- you mightn't either (indicating my stock JK Sahara)."
Well, we passed him and he never did catch up.

I'll never dis a man's wife, dog, or choice of ride. I will make fun of your clothes and musical taste though.
 

madizell

Explorer
As a venue for discussions, the Internet is by far the most abused and abusable created yet. We all tend to say things we would not say if we were face to face, and there is no secondary information to go on, such as body language (the little emoticons try to do this, but they fall short of the real thing). Bottom line -- ruffled feathers are the soup of the day.

You will always find folks who think they have the answers and you don't, or that their rig is the perfect example of off-road transportation which, by definition then, would make your example inferior. Such folks lack experience and perspective. If they truly had the experience and perspective from which to judge others, they would admit that stock and lightly modified vehicles often do as well as or better than highly modified vehicles, all depending on driver skills, terrain, and chance. I have sunk in more than one bog only to be passed and subsequently rescued by stock TJ's on 33" Mud Kings. Life is like that. When you meet someone whose attitudes are as you describe, just smile. You can't educate a pig.

Trail ratings are entirely subjective, and frequently mean very little if the trail in question is subject to change over time from overuse or weather conditions. Even on a stable trail, weather discounted, what constitutes a 3 for one guy could look a lot like a 5 to another, and even after 37 years of driving off road, I still look at rocky, steep climbs and think "no way" then drive right up them with mo more modification and 32" tires and a rear locker in an otherwise stock 40 year old Jeep. Point here is that trail ratings can fool you and they should only be taken with salt, as a guideline to preparations and expectations. Then, too, what looks difficult to me in the 40 year old CJ5 looks boring when I drive the CJ-7. As there is really no standard per se for rating trails, I suggest no one should get lost in the smoke over them. Go drive the trail, then you will know what you think of it.

I used to drive the CJ-7 in essentially stock form. 31x10.5x15 BFG MT tires, open diffs, 2.5L four cylinder gerbil power, and the lightest 4-speed known to man. No winch, no self-recovery gear on board, tow points that, today, would be embarrassing to me because of the shoddy execution, and a carburetor from hell. With this rig, and with wife and puppy on board, in a group of only 4 other vehicles manned by folks I had never met before, we crossed the Talkeetna Mountains on an 8 mile long trail that, up to that point in 1997, had never been done by street legal vehicles in summer time. It was generally considered to be impassable beyond the top of the first hill climb. We constantly did things that day that the trail guide thought we, in our Jeeps, could not do (she was driving a tundra buggy and thought little Jeeps were, well, just little Jeeps). We kept going and going until finally no one thought it so strange that we were still with the group. Everyone got stuck somewhere (far more than once). Everyone got the chance to cross some place that someone else didn't. I crossed with ease an evil mud hole that the tundra buggy sunk in and had to be rescued. The trail in question was rated off the chart for difficulty. We made it anyway. At some point, every modification on each vehicle had value, or got in the way. There is no such thing as a perfectly modified (or perfectly engineered) vehicle. Those who believe that because of the state of build of their vehicle they are necessarily superior to others, especially if they think they are superior to all others, are simply mistaken in their beliefs. But so are all fanatics.

At the end of the day, the state of modification of the vehicle is less important than the skill of the person driving it. Take whatever you drive and drive it until you know all of its limits and all of your own limits, and you will not only then know whether you need to modify something on your vehicle and why, but you will also be a better driver than the guys that think you have to have X size tires or whatever to conquer a trail.

Why can't we all just get along? Because we are all different. Always have been, always will be.
 

ntsqd

Heretic Car Camper
If you want to experience snobbery, try showing up on a crawl trail with a one wheel drive dune buggy. The vets know better, it's the nuuB's that have to be taught.

If all that you've ever seen go up a trail are hard core rigs, then only hard core rigs can make it, right?
 

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