TCO: why we deciced not to get a Sportsmobile (yet :-)

cweight

Observer
"sorry had to comment again, with this process of thought, one will be stuck on the couch crunching ###s, until its to late,,life depreciates"

Ok, I'll bite this time. This "process of thought" took me maybe two hours. Anyone who would spend $100K without spending two hours to evaluate whether it really is worthwhile to them either has too much money or is a fool, or both.

That two hours saved me from spending WAY too much money on something that won't make much of a difference in how often I get off the couch. Since I am feeling slightly insulted and seem to have some time on my hands... I already have a Land Cruiser kitted out for overland travel - it has spent a year in Australia and seven years in Africa and is now being prepped for Alaska to Argentina. I also have a Tacoma for US travel and it has seen pretty much every single National Park on the West Coast, and a significant number of the National Forests and a healthy dose of BLM lands. Just to add some more color (and brag a bit), my almost-4 year old has crawled in the sands of the Kalahari, took some of his first assisted steps on a glacier in Iceland, has napped under a mesquite tree on the White Rim Trail, has bathed in the hot springs of the Black Rock Desert, and just last weekend hiked 4 miles by himself on a backpacking trip in the North Cascades. All without a Sportsmobile! Sitting on the couch isn't something I am particularly worried about.

You know what I _do_ worry about? Working too hard. Spending too much money on s&*t I don't need and then having to work too long to pay off those debts. That Sportsmobile might mean another year or two of work to pay off. You are absolutely right that life depreciates - but for many of us, a Sportsmobile is not the answer to that depreciation. The marginal benefit that a Sportsmobile provides over my existing camping setup simply isn't worth it TO ME. For lots of other folks, it is well worth it. Awesome, congratulations, have at it, explore, enjoy, see you out there. But for those of us with either limited resources or who like to be careful with how and where we spend our money, I offered some numbers.

Interestingly, around the time I posed these numbers, I emailed the guy whose Sportsmobile I was considering buying and told him the TCO numbers had scared me away. His answer: "I don't blame you. This is part of our reasoning on selling it as well but not something I would tell prospective buyers. It doesn't make sense to us to have a third vehicle sitting a lot of the time costing that much $$. Sure we really enjoy it when we do use it but in reality we can do the same things with a tent and car and the kids would be just as happy. Hence why we will be selling the van and upsizing our space with a small travel trailer but seriously downsizing the cost."

So I posted those TCO numbers for those who DO care about such tradeoffs. Ok, back to work, I have some new skis I need to pay off :)
 
cweight; said:
You know what I _do_ worry about? Working too hard. Spending too much money on s&*t I don't need and then having to work too long to pay off those debts.

So I posted those TCO numbers for those who DO care about such tradeoffs. Ok, back to work, I have some new skis I need to pay off :)

I have a doctor friend that is the same way, he scrutinizes all big purchases for resale value and their worth to him (it drives me nuts sometimes) but in return he has a couple of planes, two modest houses, newer jeeps, and WORKS 4 DAYS A MONTH, the rest of the time he takes his home schooled daughters to Alaska, or hiking the highest points in all the states. So although I deal in a luxury service business and am glad some people part with their money freely, there is a lot to be said for those that analyze and still live their life to the fullest (cweight congrats on being one of them).
 

whitham_wannabe

New member
I got into a fully equipped SMB, 4x4 but non diesel for 19k.

It's a '96, and yeah, it isn't as shiny as a new one, but my vehicles never stay that way anyway. Everything works, and depreciation should be pretty negligable over the next few years.

Doing this it this way also allows me to assess whether I really do enjoy THE SMB ownership experience (I do) without laying out 100k.
 

mudmony

Observer
"sorry had to comment again, with this process of thought, one will be stuck on the couch crunching ###s, until its to late,,life depreciates"

Ok, I'll bite this time. This "process of thought" took me maybe two hours. Anyone who would spend $100K without spending two hours to evaluate whether it really is worthwhile to them either has too much money or is a fool, or both.

That two hours saved me from spending WAY too much money on something that won't make much of a difference in how often I get off the couch. Since I am feeling slightly insulted and seem to have some time on my hands... I already have a Land Cruiser kitted out for overland travel - it has spent a year in Australia and seven years in Africa and is now being prepped for Alaska to Argentina. I also have a Tacoma for US travel and it has seen pretty much every single National Park on the West Coast, and a significant number of the National Forests and a healthy dose of BLM lands. Just to add some more color (and brag a bit), my almost-4 year old has crawled in the sands of the Kalahari, took some of his first assisted steps on a glacier in Iceland, has napped under a mesquite tree on the White Rim Trail, has bathed in the hot springs of the Black Rock Desert, and just last weekend hiked 4 miles by himself on a backpacking trip in the North Cascades. All without a Sportsmobile! Sitting on the couch isn't something I am particularly worried about.

You know what I _do_ worry about? Working too hard. Spending too much money on s&*t I don't need and then having to work too long to pay off those debts. That Sportsmobile might mean another year or two of work to pay off. You are absolutely right that life depreciates - but for many of us, a Sportsmobile is not the answer to that depreciation. The marginal benefit that a Sportsmobile provides over my existing camping setup simply isn't worth it TO ME. For lots of other folks, it is well worth it. Awesome, congratulations, have at it, explore, enjoy, see you out there. But for those of us with either limited resources or who like to be careful with how and where we spend our money, I offered some numbers.

Interestingly, around the time I posed these numbers, I emailed the guy whose Sportsmobile I was considering buying and told him the TCO numbers had scared me away. His answer: "I don't blame you. This is part of our reasoning on selling it as well but not something I would tell prospective buyers. It doesn't make sense to us to have a third vehicle sitting a lot of the time costing that much $$. Sure we really enjoy it when we do use it but in reality we can do the same things with a tent and car and the kids would be just as happy. Hence why we will be selling the van and upsizing our space with a small travel trailer but seriously downsizing the cost."

So I posted those TCO numbers for those who DO care about such tradeoffs. Ok, back to work, I have some new skis I need to pay off :)

didnt mean to insult...and appreciate your number crunching..but there is a limited amount of time to do the things one wants.
 

rebar

Adventurer
I got into a fully equipped 96 SMB, 4x4 but non diesel for 19k.

Doing this it this way also allows me to assess whether I really do enjoy THE SMB ownership experience (I do) without laying out 100k.

That does sound like a good approach and reasonable price..

Wonder what the profit margin for a new sportsmobile is?
 

susswein

Observer
I agree with your overall conclusions, but I would suggest one correction to your calculation: Depreciation is not linear. It's highly front-loaded. When you drive a new car (or sportsmobile) off the lot it depreciates a *lot*. I bet you could get get that 5 year old sportsmobile for closer to $60K if you were willing to shop around a bit.
 

loren85022

Explorer
One great thing about buying a basic van and adding the extras is that you really get to assess what is necessary. Once we got ours, we realized many things about our style of traveling that altered our build plans. That justifies all my time spent here. I'm doing recon.
 

susswein

Observer
Agreed. I'm into my van for under $18K right now. I bought a 2001 E350 diesel quigley 4wd for $14K five years ago. It already had a high top installed. I gutted the inside, built my own interior with insulation, cabinetry, and corian countertops, added additional window, waeco fridge, LED lighting, 140W of solar with twin AGM batteries, propane system, and more, all for under $4K for materials. It's been up to Alaska, down to Cabo and many trips all over the western US, and I could probably sell it today for more than I have into it. It may not be as pretty as my friend's sportsmobiles, but the cost of ownership is a heck of a lot less.
 

kmacafee

Adventurer
A great thread. I too went through the Sportsmobile purchase process. I visited the factory and looked at quite a few used ones. Ultimately, it came down to having a vehicle that cost that much sitting around some of the time. I am a financial planner and did a quick cost/benefit analysis of getting a SMB versus something else. Ultimately, I bought a new Tacoma and and have built it into a very comfortable and useful vehicle that has taken us on some really great trips. We will probably get a Four Wheel Camper at some point. It fits in my garage and can be driven daily.

I somewhat agree that converting your life into a few columns of numbers is not ideal, but I have seen far too many people spend exorbitant amounts of money on stuff, only to find they did not plan for the unexpected. A few hours spent doing a "common sense" check is probably not enough to crush one's dreams.
 

The Swiss

Expedition Leader
Good thread! But I think it became a little unfair towards Sportsmobile (disclaimer: I don't own a Sportsmobile, don't plan the purchase of a Sportsmobile in the foreseeable future nor do I know anybody at Sportsmobile) calling them “overpriced”. Just some random thoughts.

Sportsmobile:
  • Be aware that prices are a result of the market, not dictated by a company. Sportsmobile does not have a monopoly (but a good market position in a nice niche), people who need/want a camper van have alternatives. The facts that Sportsmobile is selling their vans very well indicates that they are on target with the market price, not "overpriced".
  • What it costs you to build a van yourself for yourself does not compare to the costs a company has to deal with. The more “social” a country or state is becoming, the higher the costs that get tacked on to a business and the harder it is for a company to make a profit.
  • The reason Sportsmobiles mostly exceed the 100k barrier is not the base van and interior, but that most of their clientele expects to go camping in luxury living room conditions, with leather, surround sound systems, flat screen TV, electric operated everything and of course 4x4, big lift and big tires. A base 2WD Sportsmobile probably will run in the high 60k, not much more than a fully loaded SUV and – especially if equipped with a rear locker and good tires – will get you to 98% of the places you want to go and back home. (On a side note: the famous Westies conquered the world with a 47 HP engine and RWD only)

Now TOC or not TOC:
Any responsible person should do some kind of TCO for all major purchases, not just a Sportsmobile, to identify the true costs, no matter if it is a camper, house, car, boob-job, boat, bigscreen TV, iPad or the mediterranean cruise. Once you know the costs, then it's decision time:
  • How happy does this purchase itself makes me?
  • Will this purchase let me do things that make me happy (or how cweight put it “… it won't make much of a difference in how often I get off the couch…)
  • Are the costs in a healthy relation to the added happiness this purchase gives me?
And unluckily, last but not least:
  • Can I afford it?

Like with so many thing when life gets involved, there is just no right or wrong answer and what other people think of me and my decisions is none of my business.
 
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robgendreau

Explorer
Thought I'd chime in, being a SMB owner. I got mine in 2001, and I have to say they seem to have increased in cost faster than inflation, but it's hard to tell, since they've moved more to the high end. When I got mine, Quigley was doing the 4x4 for example, and there weren't as many bells and whistles to add. They sell towards the higher end, and look around here: that's what this site is all about. Aside from all the customs, there's Land Rovers, BMW GSs, etc etc. There are tons of cheaper alternatives just looking at initial cost.

But having said that, TCO of rec vehicles can be very misleading. The big factor isn't so much the price, or depreciation, it's the USE. People tend to delude themselves into thinking they'll use the thing (and it could be a boat, or second home, or time share) much more than they do. A couple of changed vacation plans and your cost calculation per actual use goes nuts.

Another factor, since we're on an offroad forum, is repairability. I got my SMB made to be pretty simple, and it's on a Ford platform with parts and mods aplenty. And regular-old RV or marine stuff inside. I have old vehicles, and can fix them. I would think you'd need to include some metric in your TCO to at least attempt to account for that.

Here's a sobering comparison. I recently fixed up a 1999 Chevy Tracker; got it with 120k miles in great shape. Raised it, new shocks, winch, etc etc and it's a great light offroader. $3000 price + 2500 add-ons. Couple hundred to insure. Sold it to a friend. He just bought a Newmar motor coach; 37'. Bigger than most places I live, with everything (and duplicates of everything). Tows the Tracker on a flat bed ($2500); the motor coach (with 21k miles) cost $87k. So for less than the price of a new SMB he's got a second home (BTW, it costs LESS to insure than my SMB! and gets 8 MPG to pull all that weight) and an offroad worthy vehicle. They park it out off dirt roads at Rasor Rd, Spangler or Jawbone in the Mojave, or Utah or whatnot and fourwheel and motorcycle all over the place. Like stay at Moab, throw a tent into the Tracker, and do the White Rim.

Me? I use their shower and toilet, and keep my frozen food in their fridge when we're traveling together. :D
 

robgendreau

Explorer
First and last post are great and SMB dream killers and I thank them for that.
I need occasional reminders that I can road trip in my cheap vehicle or, for the cost of a nice vehicle, fly somewhere nice.

Hey, you can still have the dream...I still have my SMB. Just look for the downscale ones if that's what you can afford.

I've often thought the model for "adventure"/RV vehicle use ought to be what we used with boats. Charters. If you're an owner, you put it in charter and some outfit rents it to day sailors, classes, etc. They cover insurance and maintenance; you get to use it when you want. Sure, it gets more miles but being used isn't necessarily a bad thing. Plus you get some money out of it. We're seeing it now with car share apps as well. And they have auto clubs that do the same, at least here in the SF Bay Area. I can take out a Lambo this weekend for the right price. Maybe AirBNB for SMBs.....
 

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