Top 10 Used Overland Vehicles: Do you agree?

AFSOC

Explorer
Also of note is that the Trooper had very little penetration in markets outside of Asia and Australia. Very little global infrastructure for that truck.

Support infrastructure for the Trooper platform in Europe, Baltics and NW Africa is available through Opel. I'm not sure how many years Opel marketed the rebadged Trooper but you still see some on the road. This platform still wouldn't be one of my choices domestically or abroad. In the past I strongly considered and researched them but the high incidence of ravenous oil appetite for the 3.5 and especially the 3.2 turned me away. Though these cars were sold through domestic dealer networks, I found replacement parts were not as readily available on the shelf like other marque options.
 

Viggen

Just here...
Wow, this list is hilarious. A new Merc wagon? A W123 perhaps but a new one? Thats funny. Your link for proof is a bad one too. How are you going to prove a point by comparing a technology and sensor laden modern Merc with a 190 from the early 90s? Youll throw up a vehicle with an extremely high cost of ownership, like the other Merc "recommendation" up there, over something that is 100% more capable, durable and dependable: the Subaru Outback or Forester? Makes no sense at all. Better AWD, better clearance, better bang for the buck and available limited slip rear with locking center diff. With the list of requirements written as it is, how is the Merc wagon a better choice?

Oh, JK is one of the top 10 most unreliable vehicles. I see youve never had a problem with your JKs but yours arent exactly off the production line, now are they? Didnt see that mentioned. And the Patriot? Really?
 

Christian P.

Expedition Leader
Staff member
Wow, this list is hilarious. A new Merc wagon? A W123 perhaps but a new one? Thats funny. Your link for proof is a bad one too. How are you going to prove a point by comparing a technology and sensor laden modern Merc with a 190 from the early 90s? Youll throw up a vehicle with an extremely high cost of ownership, like the other Merc "recommendation" up there, over something that is 100% more capable, durable and dependable: the Subaru Outback or Forester? Makes no sense at all. Better AWD, better clearance, better bang for the buck and available limited slip rear with locking center diff. With the list of requirements written as it is, how is the Merc wagon a better choice?

Oh, JK is one of the top 10 most unreliable vehicles. I see youve never had a problem with your JKs but yours arent exactly off the production line, now are they? Didnt see that mentioned. And the Patriot? Really?


Viggen,

Based on this sentence from the article (a list that reflects vehicles available to purchase in the USA and then driven around the world), I am afraid that the Subaru is out - regardless of whether it is better than a Mercedes or not. They are just not that available anywhere else south of the border or in Africa.

As far as W123, they are extremely good but they are also really old by now. I can guarantee that you have as much chance as breaking down with such an old car that having problem with the electronics on the new one.
 

Scott Brady

Founder
Viggen,

In all of my international travels I have seen millions of Mercedes sedans and practically zero Subarus.

In all of your international travels, how many Subarus have you seen traveling around the world or even used by locals? Number of Subaru dealerships in Central Asia? Number of Subaru dealerships in Nicaragua? Peru? There are none.

My G-Wagon came with a book of Mercedes dealerships around the world and map of each country. Every new Mercedes includes worldwide warranty. Go buy a new Merc and it will be supported by every Mercedes dealer in the world for 12 months. Pretty cool!

The Mercedes is the superior choice - they are ubiquitous in the interesting places of the world. A Forester is ubiquitous in Seattle. :p

Here is a list of countries with operational Mercedes dealerships with service support:
Albania
Algeria
Argentina
Armenia
Aruba
Australia
Austria
Azerbaijan
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belgium
Benin
Bolivia
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Brazil
Brunei
Bulgaria
Burkina Faso
Burundi
Cambodia
Cameroon
Canada
Cayman Islands
Chile
China
Colombia
Costa Rica
Côte D'Ivoire
Croatia
Cuba
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
Egypt
Estonia
Ethiopia
Fiji
Finland
France
French Guiana
Gambia
Georgia
Germany
Ghana
Gibraltar
Greece
Guadeloupe
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
Haiti
Honduras
Hong Kong
Hungary
Iceland
India
Indonesia
Iran
Ireland
Israel
Italy
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Kenya
Korea
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Latvia
Lebanon
Liberia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Macedonia
Malawi
Malaysia
Mali
Malta
Martinique
Mauritania
Mauritius
Mexico
Mongolia
Nepal
Netherlands
Netherlands Antilles
New Caledonia
New Zealand
Nicaragua
Norway
Oman
Pakistan
Palestine
Panama
Papua New Guinea
Paraguay
Peru
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Qatar
Romania
Russia
Saint Lucia
Saudi Arabia
Senegal
Serbia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Slovakia
Slovenia
South Africa
Spain
Sri Lanka
Sweden
Switzerland
Syria
Taiwan
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Turkey
Turkmenistan
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
United Kingdom
United States
Uruguay
Uzbekistan
Venezuela
Vietnam
Yemen
 

Paladin

Banned
I can guarantee that you have as much chance as breaking down with such an old car that having problem with the electronics on the new one.

That may be true, but you're 100% more likely to be able to fix the old Merc with a hammer and a screw driver than you are the new Merc. If anything goes wrong with a new Merc (and they do) it must be towed to a Merc dealer to use their proprietary electonics. Sure, there may be a dealer in Baku, Azerbaijan, but how hard is it going to be to get your Merc there if it stops running in Jabrayil?

You don't need to worry about Subaru dealers, because they just never break. :) If by some miracle they did... well, parts can be shipped anywhere in the world. And anybody who knows which way to turn a screw can work on them.
 

Christian P.

Expedition Leader
Staff member
That may be true, but you're 100% more likely to be able to fix the old Merc with a hammer and a screw driver than you are the new Merc. If anything goes wrong with a new Merc (and they do) it must be towed to a Merc dealer to use their proprietary electonics. Sure, there may be a dealer in Baku, Azerbaijan, but how hard is it going to be to get your Merc there if it stops running in Jabrayil?

You don't need to worry about Subaru dealers, because they just never break. :) If by some miracle they did... well, parts can be shipped anywhere in the world. And anybody who knows which way to turn a screw can work on them.

Well, this comes back to the overall perception that people in Nicaragua all drives 1972 Toyota Corolla...things are changing and there are more and more mechanics (even in third world countries) that can fix cars with an 02 sensor and a MAF...these guys will get your Benz running, I am not worry.
 

kjp1969

Explorer
I like the parts availability and pricing of my '95 Bronco. The only time it let me down was due to a idler pulley bearing that slowly went south. It finally got noisy enough that I pulled over to change it in Ridgecrest CA. $19 and 10 minutes and I was on my way. Try to get, well, anything for a 15 year old Land Rover for $19.

When you drive an old 'Merican truck, you share the same platform as 75% of the landscapers in any major city. Result? Parts are plentiful and cheap.

It cruises at 75 with good AC and is fairly quiet inside. It gets around 13-14 doing just that. The rear top comes off for the summer. What's not to like?

Oh yeah, and the stock tank is 33gal for a real world, 4-lo range of 200+ miles, HD suspension is cheap and readily available. If you really need heavy duty or go-fast, don't look to England, look to SCORE racing.

Broncos seat five or six and still have huge cargo capacity.

Really, if you're talking about North America, you'd be a fool to completely rule out Big Three fullsize trucks.
 

Scott Brady

Founder
I think both Rob and Christian have valid points.

A vehicle should be reliable or serviceable. If it is both, then you are driving a 40 or 60 series Land Cruiser :sombrero:

That was the beauty of the series Land Rover. Never particularly reliable, but so easy to work on, like an erector set. When that serviceability faded away, the brand suffered in Africa. Now, Toyota owns the continent (and all the others) because of ultimate reliability.

However, newer vehicles are more reliable than ever. Look at the couple that just drove London to Cape Town in a new Range Rover. They changed tires and installed a rack and then left. Not a single failure, not even a flat.

The unfortunate result though, is that vehicles will become appliances. They will have a life cycle of predictable reliability and then fade away. Think of TeriAnns Series truck, which has provided faithful service for a third of a century. Not always reliable, but easy for her to fix.

Those days are gone for good and bad.
 

Paladin

Banned
Well, this comes back to the overall perception that people in Nicaragua all drives 1972 Toyota Corolla...things are changing and there are more and more mechanics (even in third world countries) that can fix cars with an 02 sensor and a MAF...these guys will get your Benz running, I am not worry.

I never assumed that people in Uzbekistan still ride stone-wheeled carts.

Trust me, I love electronics. Anybody who knows me is aware of that. But what I don't like is the use of electronics to maintain a stranglehold on the service industry and drive business to the registered dealers.

So for example, changing the MAF and O2's on my truck (or every other vehicle built before 2005) takes a few minutes, and anybody can do it. But if, and I don't know for sure, the MAF on a new Merc is on the CANBus, you absolutely will not be changing it yourself. You need a dealer computer to talk to the ECU and tell it the new MAF sensor CANBus address, or it won't recognize the new sensor.

This is the direction new vehicles are going, and Mercedes is leading the charge.

This is *specifically* why I bought a 2004 Discovery. I wanted the last (most rust free) Disco I could get with solid axles and no network! Well, I've still got one network, but luckily it's unlocked.
 

Viggen

Just here...
Thats a pretty prodigious list of dealers but if youll take a second and peruse the Subaru Global site, http://www.subaru-global.com/, youll notice that they have quite the dealer network themselves, including some of the countries youve listed off. Perhaps not as large as Mercedes due to the sheer amount of money Daimler has in relation to Subaru but Subaru hasnt been as internationally active as many of the other marques mentioned due to their restricted access to funds.

"Mercedes-Benz had the least reliable vehicles in three categories. Six of its 13 models were below average, and the GLK SUV was far below average this year." - Consumer Reports

"Subaru had a good record overall, with a top rating going to the four-cylinder Legacy sedan and the non-turbo version of the Forester SUV." - Consumer Reports

Warranty Direct most reliable cars of the past decade (and this is an international list, copy available at: http://www.gizmag.com/the-100-most-reliable-cars-of-the-last-decade-in-order/5657/):
#2: Subaru Forester - Not quite an off roader, much more than an estate with a sporty edge, making it the perfect combination. Great all round buy.
#72: Mercedes E Class

I guess its good that the dealer network is so dense as many owners of European cars will tell you, youll need them.

I guess Im more along the lines of TKSC01 when it comes to traveling. The list is of vehicles that could be taken around the world and are available for purchase here, which lets face it, a very, very, very small amount of people on this board will actually do. We dream of it and talk about it but the fact is, most of us will not make it past Canada or Mexico with our vehicles.

You have been fortunate enough to partake in many "international travels", which you have pointed out, but there are some choices on the list that make no sense at all. With your readership in mind, most of this list is funny. The argument of global dealer networks are relevant due to the choices. You even acknowledge that one of your choices would be almost impossible to find parts for while traveling:
"The G-Wagen is a rare breed, and for those who have driven them, they rarely will drive anything else. Yes, they are that good, but their obscurity is also their only downfall, as parts can be difficult or impossible to find while traveling and they can be somewhat temperamental."
So, why is a limited parts availability G Wagen that can be "temperamental" a better choice than a DII which has better parts availability, due to its being more common place, but can also be just as temperamental? Curious as to the logic. Is it because Tom Sheppard drives one?

You list things like capability and reliability and then list what is acknowledged to be one of the least reliable vehicles out there as a top choice (because the international dealer network is dense?) over a vehicle widely acknowledged to be one of the most reliable and durable vehicles out there (but a thinner international network) and then go on to list the Nissan XTerra as a top choice. You do know that that is a North American market only offering right? Show up to an international dealer with one of those and youll be waiting for parts too. So, why is it acceptable to have limited availability of parts for the XTerra but not for a Subaru? In fact, your words of wisdom for it are "The best overall value on the list, but make sure you don't leave the country without a DHL account and the number to your Nissan dealership." What about Suzuki? They will have a great dealer network for their motorcycles but what about the automobile side of things? They are not the same. I bet its thinner on the ground than Subarus. It just makes no sense at all really.

Which vehicle is going to require that extensive network? Thats what you should be asking yourself. Change suspension geometry, install skidplates and add a few things to make the E Class what an Outback or Forester already is? A Subaru might not have the international network that Mercedes has but, if the goal is overall reliability and as few modifications as possible to keep the reliability and be ready for the trip, the E Class is not a top choice. Hard to imagine why it is. For some vehicles, it isnt a question of if but when youre going to need that dealer network and youve highly recommended one that falls firmly into that category (possibly more than that if you count the G Wagen and the JK which are not highly rated when it comes to reliability).

I think that the choice is made with a view of what Mercedes USED to be and not what Mercedes currently is just like there is a difference between what Toyota USED to be versus what Toyota is now. In the cosmopolitan parts of Africa and Eastern Europe, a new Mercedes might be common but in the rougher parts, the common Mercedes is going to be an example of what they USED to be, the W123 (which would be the better choice but out of range for this list due to its age).

Then we get to the Jeep Compass. Why the Jeep Compass/ Dodge Caliber? Superior AWD? Nope. Superior build quality? Hell no. Superior Capability? Youre joking, right? My 20 year old plastic Thermos lunch box has better quality materials and build quality than that entire car.

I am sure that I am going to come off as a Subaru fan boy. I have owned one and it was up there as one of the most reliable and best built road cars I have ever owned. I am not questioning because of any latent Subaru fanaticism but because the list of requirements and the actual list of choices varies so wildly. A list is just a list and subject to personal bias but many things just make no sense at all to me.
 
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Scott Brady

Founder
Then we get to the Jeep Compass. Why the Jeep Compass/ Dodge Caliber?

I never recommended the Compass.

With regards to the G-Wagen, I only said parts would be difficult to find, not service. The dealer infrastructure would allow parts to be shipped in and then service performed at an authorized center.

Subaru has countries listed where they have an importer, not a dealer. We have a Forester, it is in the back lot waiting for its second motor. It has 106,000 miles. . .

Look, I love the fact that people don't agree with my list. If I had 100 ExPo members make their own lists, they would all be different. This is just my list, so make your own mind up if my choices are 'worthy' or not - it is all good :D
 

haven

Expedition Leader
This is a great discussion. I'm happy to see the Suzuki and XTerra on Scott's list.

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the older Jeep Wranglers. Most are stovebolt-simple, and the 4.0L engine is powerful and super reliable. Aftermarket support for the Wrangler is better than any other 4x4 vehicle sold in North America, so if you want to improve on the vehicle's capabilities there are many inexpensive options.

Any place around the world that you find difficult road conditions, you'll find a Wrangler or two. In foreign lands, parts availability is not as great as some other brands. But the vehicles are simple, so repairs can usually be made on the spot.

Make mine the 2005-06 Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon. The only problem with this model is that it's popular, so used car prices are high. You could buy a 2000 Land Cruiser 100 for the price of a 2006 Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon.
 

Viggen

Just here...
I never recommended the Compass.

Sorry, the Compass, Patriot and Caliber are all the same thing.

With regards to the G-Wagen, I only said parts would be difficult to find, not service. The dealer infrastructure would allow parts to be shipped in and then service performed at an authorized center.

Why do parts need to be installed at an authorized center? How much of your work is actually done by an authorized center? None of mine.

Subaru has countries listed where they have an importer, not a dealer. We have a Forester, it is in the back lot waiting for its second motor. It has 106,000 miles. . .

If there is an importer, there would have to be a dealer or two, right? I mean, I cannot think of one car company in the business of shipping cars to ports for them to sit there and not be used. What year Forester? I bet its an early iteration which had issues with head gaskets, right (same as the 80 series)? Those problems do not happen anymore since the redesign.

Look, I love the fact that people don't agree with my list. If I had 100 ExPo members make their own lists, they would all be different. This is just my list, so make your own mind up if my choices are 'worthy' or not - it is all good :D

I know, thats why I said its all subjective. Everyone will come up with their own lists but you did make the mistake of asking for input. I agree with many of your choices but there are some where a double standard seems to exist. Thats all. Discounting one option for the lack of parts availability but accepting others (while adding that you should keep your shipper number handy for parts delivery). Arguing on the internet is like road racing a Honda Civic. Sure, you can do it but no ones going to win.
 

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