Which Winch ?

Icewalker

Adventurer
Probably a dumb question - but now I have the winch on the way and I'm going to be sorting out the dual battery setup etc. I know there is the remote switch on the winch itself but has anyone rigged up a set of switches inside their cab so that they can operate the winch in comfort without having to run the winch controller through the window?

On my Discovery I'm getting rid of the two low and high volume controls on the dash (they're pretty redundant since there's a volume button on the stereo). I was wondering if I could use these two switches as the feed in/feed out controls and then add a third switch to turn the winch on from inside the cab?

Anyone have any diagrams ?

Thanks

Jeff
 

Scott Brady

Founder
Like this?

DSCF1105.JPG


From Roadless Gear
Super easy to install with a Warn and prewired. A snap.
 

Grim Reaper

Expedition Leader
My 2 cents:


LINE SPEED, LINE SPEED, LINE SPEED!

I have seen it over and over again where a slow winch kills you.

Most stucks like we encounter once you get unstuck you can usually keep moving on your own TILL you have to stop to keep from running over the winch line. Then you are stuck again and having to make a second hard pull instead of just reeling in the slack. That right there is one of the things that makes the 8274 one of the greatest winches ever.

I couldn't fit a 8274 on my last truck. I went with a HS9500i (now called the 9.5) because it was the second fastest winch available at the time (had only been on the market about 10 months).

I took a long time to buy a winch (mostly because I'm short of cash) and during that time I had a lot of chances to see what worked and what didn't. Warn was consistently the better performer. Ramsey had a real nasty habit of jamming cables between the drum and housing. Saw that a couple times. It is pure and simple a design flaw and in fairness it may now be corrected.

Mile Marker Hydo...SLOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW and I never saw one live up to their ratings. Buddy had one. did everything he could to make it perform and it constantly lacked grunt. One instance it nearly cost him an engine. He got stuck in a water crossing with water about mid block. Winch stalled and could not get him out and his NEW engine took on water. It seized the oil pump when it started to pump water and the pump drove the distributor (79 Ford Bronco with 351). Killed the engine...that was actually lucky. One of the members then dragged him out totally dead in one shot with a 8274.

I have also seen first hand a drive clutch failure on the MM's. Its a design problem. I am aware of a lawsuit involving a Z71 that ended up shooting down a hill backwards when a clutch deicide to pop out. Ended up laying on its side in a creek. The guy was only re spooling on a light grade for tension when it happened. I would question if the electric's are the same flawed design.

Knew a few people with Superwinches. They seem solid. Never saw one fail to do the job. Only thing I didn't like was they were slow unloaded line speeds compared to the Warns. Loaded line speed they were close to the same.

I think the Bosch motors Warn uses are also a big plus. I have only seen a couple burned up motors...It was just plain abuse beyond design. Lack of cool down time. Solenoids seem to be a common failure part across the board with all manufactures but it is a lot better to burn out a solenoid then a motor. Consider it a fuse and you might want to keep a couple spares.

Here is a guy that makes some nice switch panels and will manufacture the plates to your spec.

http://www.12voltguy.com/catalog.0.html32.0.html
 
upcruiser said:
This thread is a refresshing alternative to the other ones on unnamed forums where everyone insists that I need a 12,000# Warn and nothing less for my 80.
that's only because they're looking at gvw and comparing it to the outer wrap single line pull rating, without thinking outside the box.

technically i should get a 12K for the tundra, but with a little ingenuity and planning it's not necessary...that 12K weighs a freaking ton.

with an extension (or two or three in different sizes) and some planning, a guy could theoretically strap a proper length extension to a tree, fix a block to the extension, then do a double pull on the first or second wrap with a short line length and a lightweight 6K# winch, and i bet in a good stuck it'll be a negligable time difference between that and a long single pull on the last wrap of a 12K# winch. the extensions just need to have twice the rating of the winch-mounted line.

i'll probably end up with a 10K since that's what fits the arb on my tundra...but i'm pretty sure with practice i could rig up with the 8-9K range winches in similar time to a guy rigging up a pull on the 12K.

-sean
 

Icewalker

Adventurer
devinsixtyseven said:
that's only because they're looking at gvw and comparing it to the outer wrap single line pull rating, without thinking outside the box.

technically i should get a 12K for the tundra, but with a little ingenuity and planning it's not necessary...that 12K weighs a freaking ton.

with an extension (or two or three in different sizes) and some planning, a guy could theoretically strap a proper length extension to a tree, fix a block to the extension, then do a double pull on the first or second wrap with a short line length and a lightweight 6K# winch, and i bet in a good stuck it'll be a negligable time difference between that and a long single pull on the last wrap of a 12K# winch. the extensions just need to have twice the rating of the winch-mounted line.

i'll probably end up with a 10K since that's what fits the arb on my tundra...but i'm pretty sure with practice i could rig up with the 8-9K range winches in similar time to a guy rigging up a pull on the 12K.

-sean

Snatch blocks and rigging seem to be the order of the day :D - next items on the shopping list. BTW how many snatch blocks are enough? I was planning on 3 plus of course the D shackles to go with them, a couple of straps and a land anchor. Anything else I should be thinking of? Thought about getting either a come along or a winch kit for the hi-lift for when I have to winch out backwards - too bad no one has come up with a system as elegant as the Foers Ibex.
 

Scott Brady

Founder
Pulleys: Most people bring one. I have two. Three would be for jungle trekking or Alaska IMHO.

Recovery Kits: Viking Off-Road and Extreme Outback both have nice (complete) kits. I have two of the Extreme Outback kits.

Alternate Solutions: The hi-lift is tough to use in a recovery, but it can work in a pinch. I have used a Black Rat Tirfor style and bring it along occasionally if side pulls or additional rigging is necessary.
 
Last edited:

Willman

Active member
expeditionswest said:
Pulleys: Most people bring one. I have two. Three would be for jungle trekking or Alaska IMHO.

Recovery Kits: Viking Off-Road and Extreme Outback both have nice (complete) kits. I have two of the Extreme Outback kits.

Alternate Solutions: The hi-lift is tough to use in a recovery, but it can work in a pinch. I have used a Black Rat Tirfor style and bring it along occasionally if side pulls or additional rigging is necessary.

I have warns full kit (red bag) that has been a great setup for me. I got it as a gift....
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
Grim Reaper said:
My 2 cents:

LINE SPEED, LINE SPEED, LINE SPEED!

I have seen it over and over again where a slow winch kills you.

Most stucks like we encounter once you get unstuck you can usually keep moving on your own TILL you have to stop to keep from running over the winch line. Then you are stuck again and having to make a second hard pull instead of just reeling in the slack. That right there is one of the things that makes the 8274 one of the greatest winches ever.

Well, respectfully, I have to disagree with this: IMO, line-speed is just NOT an issue with winches. Unless you're competing, perhaps. But for expedition use, it's a very minor consideration. I find that, at least here in the UK, the most widely publicised winch training and advice is given by competition experts. They have awe-inspiring technical expertise, but a completely different set of priorities to people who use winches professionally, or those who need them for vehicle recovery during an adventure or expedition.

So at the risk of either stating the obvious, or alternatively contradicting all the advice you've read before, here's my ranked outline of the objectives and constraints of non-competitive winching:

1) Personal safety.
2) Minimal damage (including enviromental).
3) Effective recovery.
4) Least work.
5) Least time.

To achieve all of that simultaneously means spending time doing the rigging properly; the time spent actually winching-in is negligible compared to the planning, preparing, and rigging. So from that point of view, line-speed under load is an insignificant feature of a winch. (There should be a reasonably fast spool-in, though, to make re-rigging quicker and easier).

In terms of specific techniques, most of the usual advice is in line with the objectives above. One exception is the widespread idea of "helping" the winch by driving the vehicle at the same time. In my opinion, where possible don't use drive-assist, because it makes for uneven, unpredictable loading on the winch and rigging, and because it makes everything happen too fast. Far better to use a few snatch-blocks and have the truck pulled out very slowly so that you have time to watch for snags, obstacles, anchor movement, vehicle damage, and uneven spooling.

Of course, I concede that sometimes you might have to assist the pull with some engine power - for example if you don't have sufficient rope or a suitable anchor for a snatch-block pull. But don't rush it. Obviously, keep driving even if the rope goes slack and you can do so without risk of a wheel going over it. But don't let it become a desperate attempt to keep moving - winches are made for slow steady pulls, not the sudden shock loads imposed by the vehicle slipping back and forth under its own power. If the truck bogs down again, just take another look at the new situation, spool in, take up the tension, and start pulling again. The winch doesn't mind.

The other thing I seldom see emphasised during winch training (though all winch manufacturers do state it loud and clear) is that a winch is NOT a lifting device. Any fight against gravity counts as lifting. So DON'T use a winch to drag yourself up a hill, unless you have a secondary method of controlled descent if the winch, anchor, rope, or mounting points should fail. If you really have to winch your way up a crazily steep or slippery slope where the brakes might not be able to hold you, use a secondary rope, anchor and mounting points, and then "tail" the second rope in as the winch pulls. Any failure in the primary rigging will be taken up by the secondary lot.

Grim Reaper said:
I am aware of a lawsuit involving a Z71 that ended up shooting down a hill backwards when a clutch deicide to pop out. Ended up laying on its side in a creek. The guy was only re spooling on a light grade for tension when it happened.
Case in point. I have no idea what caused the clutch to pop out, but it could equally well have been the rope breaking, gear failure, a shackle giving way, the anchor slipping, or the operator hitting the wrong button. In this case, it was a clutch. Always have a backup arrangement if there is any chance of the load running away in the case of failure. Even if you're just spooling in - failures do happen. If you must winch up a slope to get your spool-in tension, at least have a driver in the truck!

As regards the actual choice of winch, I'll post my views in a new posting below, so as not to make this post any longer than it already is!

M...
 
Last edited:

michaelgroves

Explorer
As this very thread shows, choosing a winch, like almost every other choice, is a compromise. There's no right answer, it's just a matter of the importance that you, as an individual, attach to the various features and advantages (or lack thereof) of each possible choice.

I like lists, so:

  • Personal safety
  • Rope capacity
  • Drum configuration
  • Ability to take synthetic rope
  • Pulling time without the engine running
  • Duty cycle under load
  • Load capacity
  • Reliability
  • Durability
  • Weight
  • Ease of installation
  • Cost
  • Maintenance requirements
  • Mounting configuration
  • Line speed under load
  • Respool speed
  • Ease of operation

I'm sure there are many more considerations - these were just the ones that occurred to me, and in no particular order.

What makes it hard to choose a specific product is that it's not just deciding which factors are most important to you, it's deciding (and assessing) the trade-off rates. So how much extra cost are you prepared to incur to get (how much?) extra reliability? And how would you usefully assess the reliability on that scale, of a cheaper versus a more expensive winch?

It becomes a matter of knowing the circumstances under which you will be using a winch, and judging the experience and opinions of others who use theirs under similar circumstances.

So, for what it's worth, here's my reasoning for a vehicle used primarily for expeditions to remote places:

Firstly, why have one at all? For a start, one winch between several vehicles may be enough. And even alone, if you think you are unlikely to get stuck, and that if you do, you will be able to get free after a few hours with a high-lift jack and a Tirfor, then the weight and cost of a winch might well be avoided altogether. Provided the consequences of being unsuccessful are not too dire, of course.

Ok, so you are going to a place where you might get quite badly stuck, and where an hour with a winch can save you a day without one...

Firstly, I would say if it's worth having a winch at all, it's worth spending money on a good one. If the winch seals poorly against water and dirt, and the components are low-quality, then come the day you need it, you'll find it's all corroded, or the gears strip or the motor seizes or whatever. I've had that happen a few too many times.

I'd choose a mechanical or hydraulic winch. Yes, they don't work if the engine doesn't run. In reality, that only matters if you're in a river too deep for your engine to run. So don't go there (certainly not solo). You'll drown the engine even before you need the winch. Send the other guy and see what happens. Then you can winch or pull him out and rebuild his engine together. :oops: Other situations where it's vital to winch without an engine are very rare - you need a lot of imagination to come up with any compelling scenarios!

Once one's got over that disadvantage, then mechanical and hydraulic winches are pretty clear winners (cost aside). The plus-points below apply to the Milemarker hydraulic H12000 specifically (I think it's a very good hydraulic winch for the price), but most of them apply to hydro and mechanical winches in general:

1) They will run all day, quietly, with no overheating, no loss of power, and without having to rev the engine. This fuss-free operation is a huge benefit when you undertake a long, complex recovery - i.e. when you really need a winch.
2) Simple - therefore (in my experience) reliable, durable, and low maintenance.
3) Slow and powerful (4-5 tons actual line-pull in my experience), but with high speed respool.
4) Speed and line-pull are both very constant. Electric motors react to resistance by drawing more amperage, so a nearly-stalled electric winch can generate huge line-pull spikes, way in excess of their rated capacities. Other things being equal, hydraulics are less prone to breaking dangerous rigging for this reason.
5) Small, low-profile, and lightweight.
6) Wide drum allows long pulls per layer of rope.
7) Easy to install.

I would definitely fit any winch with good synthetic rope if possible, rather than wire rope. It's much easier to rig and re-rig, and much safer. On the downside, it's more expensive by a long chalk, and it can be damaged in ways that would leave a wire-rope unscathed (though the reverse applies too).

Two or three snatch-blocks with matching shackles, and a long winch extension rope of good synthetic will make your winching kit much more flexible. Together, this kit can allow you to alter the angle of pull, increase the maximum line pull several-fold, or use an anchor that's too close or far to use with the winch alone. Remember that the snatch-blocks and shackles must be safely rated for at least twice the pulling capacity of your winch and its fitted rope! The extension rope should also preferably be double the capacity (in case you need to use it in-line with a snatch-block, rather than around the sheave).

So that's my vote cast - hope it makes some sense, at least in the context I placed it in.

Happy adventuring in 2007, everyone.

M...
 

Grim Reaper

Expedition Leader
michaelgroves said:
Well, respectfully, I have to disagree with this: IMO, line-speed is just NOT an issue with winches. Unless you're competing, perhaps. But for expedition use, it's a very minor consideration. I find that, at least here in the UK, the most widely publicised winch training and advice is given by competition experts. They have awe-inspiring technical expertise, but a completely different set of priorities to people who use winches professionally, or those who need them for vehicle recovery during an adventure or expedition.

So at the risk of either stating the obvious, or alternatively contradicting all the advice you've read before, here's my ranked outline of the objectives and constraints of non-competitive winching:

1) Personal safety.
2) Minimal damage (including enviromental).
3) Effective recovery.
4) Least work.
5) Least time.

To achieve all of that simultaneously means spending time doing the rigging properly; the time spent actually winching-in is negligible compared to the planning, preparing, and rigging. So from that point of view, line-speed under load is an insignificant feature of a winch. (There should be a reasonably fast spool-in, though, to make re-rigging quicker and easier).

In terms of specific techniques, most of the usual advice is in line with the objectives above. One exception is the widespread idea of "helping" the winch by driving the vehicle at the same time. In my opinion, where possible don't use drive-assist, because it makes for uneven, unpredictable loading on the winch and rigging, and because it makes everything happen too fast. Far better to use a few snatch-blocks and have the truck pulled out very slowly so that you have time to watch for snags, obstacles, anchor movement, vehicle damage, and uneven spooling.

Of course, I concede that sometimes you might have to assist the pull with some engine power - for example if you don't have sufficient rope or a suitable anchor for a snatch-block pull. But don't rush it. Obviously, keep driving even if the rope goes slack and you can do so without risk of a wheel going over it. But don't let it become a desperate attempt to keep moving - winches are made for slow steady pulls, not the sudden shock loads imposed by the vehicle slipping back and forth under its own power. If the truck bogs down again, just take another look at the new situation, spool in, take up the tension, and start pulling again. The winch doesn't mind.

...

You have good points but I still stand by my statment on the most common winches we see in the US. I am talking 12v electric.

Where I wheel we are usually on a steep hill snot slick with mud. If you can keep moving you must do so. Once we lay cable out only the anal retentive respool till off the trail. It gets butterfly wrapped on the bumper.

We lay as much cable out as we possibly can to get the longest pull on the least wraps of the drum. Somebody usually keeps an eye on the winch and stops the driver if it birds nests the cable.

To allow the winch to do all the pulling here is going to result in the following if you don't stop every 1-2 minutes to let the winch rest 10 (the manufacture general recomendations).

Burned up solenoids
Burned up battery
Burned up alternator.
All of the above

Unloaded line speed NEVER hurts. In places like Tellico doing it as you suggest means the difference of a 10 minute recovery per vehicle to a 1 hour recovery per vehicle. When you have 10 truck in a group you are talking a huge amount of time.

The average 12v winch is designed for short bursts of load. To run them continuously will damage them. They are not designed for long continuous pulls. Even says so in the owners manual.
http://www.warn.com/images/925/73203.A0_rdr.pdf

Running a worm drive continuously is not nearly as bad as a planetary. A 24v winch has much longer duty cycles. A hydraulic or PTO drive are the only winches I would think about not assisting the winch for anything other then a very minor pull.
Here is why:
12V DC Performance Data:

Load (lbs.) Current (amps) Speed (fpm)

9,000 454.5 5.2

8,000 419.9 6.1

6,000 344.9 7.8

4,000 261.8 10.3

2,000 194.6 14.6

0 87.7 26.9



Even with no load on the line you are pulling 90amps. A light load of 2000lb exceeds the power on 99.9% of most peoples alternator capacity. The electrical system simply cannot sustain that on most vehicles more then short bursts.
 

chet

island Explorer
I have seen both electric and hydraulic winches fail. The newer milemarker winches may be better but the old ones sucked. They were so slow it was rediculous. Plus your PS system better be top notch or you will overheat the fluid and it also limits your ability to turn as it robs some of the systems pressure.

I presonally like electric as its kind of a stand alone unit. If it fails nothing else fails with (ala hydraulic line)

I like PTO winches as well for the different gears they allow. One guy in our club has a JDM cruiser with a PTO winch and I'm sure it will be great if the shear pins didn't snap at anything more than a persons weight!!! :rolleyes:
 

SeaRubi

Explorer
couple rover specific notes- a friend has an older M8000 on an armored range rover classic and it's got plenty of grunt (sliders, bumpers, skids etc. ). we've made some very long pulls with that little beast on steel cable and it's performed well. He runs a single optima setup with a wrangler high-zoot 160 amp alternator. With some revs it doesn't have a problem keeping winch, rear work lamp, and hella halogens and fogs up front all working well into the night.

fwiw.

i myself chose slow and heavy to get reliability and durability. I have a worm-drive pierce that's a 9k and has a nearly 12k stall. I ordered one with a wider 11" drum compared to the normal 8" to keep the wraps closer to the spool. It will weigh right at 100lbs with synthetic but it's built like a tank, and I feel i'll be able to trust it.

we've mounted this same winch on a heavy Discovery II with an 8" drum and it performs very well. In terms of line speed, I will say this - these worm drives pull about the same speed under load as a warn 9k on a similarly sized truck. The only downside I really saw was spooling the line back in under no-load compared to the sexier Warns. We just butterfly the synthetic line around the bullbar until it's time to hit the road, or when setting camp for the night.

here's a pic for anyone interested.

pierce.jpg


as installed in a Discovery II, with Dixon Bate recovery points:

IMG_4788.sized.jpg



Here's a pic of the 11" drum like mine as mounted on CJ. They can be equipped for 12 or 24 volt:

jeep3.jpg



cheers
-isaac
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
Grim Reaper said:
...
Where I wheel we are usually on a steep hill snot slick with mud. If you can keep moving you must do so.
...

To allow the winch to do all the pulling here is going to result in the following if you don't stop every 1-2 minutes to let the winch rest 10 (the manufacture general recomendations).

Burned up solenoids
Burned up battery
Burned up alternator.
All of the above

Valid points - I concede that my thinking was geared towards travel-type expeditions rather than the sort of extreme terrain challenges that you are describing. I guess if you have a long convoy of vehicles that all need winching through several stages of a route, all in one day or a weekend, then winching speed does take on a new importance!

I also can see the logic about drive-assistance in the context of electric winches - contrary to what I said, the winch does mind doing lots of repeated pulls. In which case, it makes sense not to make it pull any more than necessary.

In general, when I have needed a winch, it has been for a heavily-laden vehicle, in circumstances where careful rigging is called for, and where taking an hour or two to traverse a kilometre doesn't really matter.

So I guess it always does come back to under exactly what circumstances you anticipate needing the winch in the first place.


chet said:
...
The newer milemarker winches may be better but the old ones sucked. They were so slow it was rediculous. Plus your PS system better be top notch or you will overheat the fluid and it also limits your ability to turn as it robs some of the systems pressure.

Well, mine is only about 5 years old, and while it is slow, that aspect has never bothered me, for the reasons I outlined above. (The single-speed versions would be annoying, though, because respooling a full length of rope would take about 10 minutes!).

Regarding the use of the power-steering pump, this overheating business is actually an ongoing myth. (I looked into this very carefully before committing to a hydraulic winch). Continual shock-loads through the steering when driving off-road put a much greater load on the pump than winching, even near full load. The heat dissipates through the fluid circulation - the pump, hoses, reservoir, and steering box all act as efficient heat-sinks. The proof of this is to feel the body of a hydraulic winch after it has been working hard - it is just warm to the touch. The potential problem with using the PS pump is that some models (like Land Rovers) simply don't have the flow-rate and working pressure to get full performance from the winch. I used a dedicated ZF74 pump, although it didn't actually seem to make much difference compared to sharing the standard pump.


chet said:
I presonally like electric as its kind of a stand alone unit. If it fails nothing else fails with (ala hydraulic line)
What do you think is more likely: a standard industrial hydraulic line bursting, or a winch toasting your wiring/battery/alternator? :)


chet said:
I like PTO winches as well for the different gears they allow. One guy in our club has a JDM cruiser with a PTO winch and I'm sure it will be great if the shear pins didn't snap at anything more than a persons weight!!! :rolleyes:

Funny you should say that - I've only ever seen a few PTO winches, and all of them seem to have the same issue! I also like the idea of being able to have multiple speeds, but I don't fancy all those little driveshafts etc. What I really like the sound of is those PTO-driven centrally mounted winches, with cable fore and aft. If you have the space for it underneath, it seems a neat idea.
 

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