Running winch on deep cycle battery with max amperage draw of 465 Amps

[nycgags]

I am interested in connecting my warn zeon platinum 10-s winch to a dedicated lithium ion battery, the max amp draw is 465 amps when pulling 10k lbs, not likely I run into this situation but always good to be prepared for it. Here is their chart with amp stepping based on load:

(sorry for formatting, was not allowed to post a link)
12V DC PERFORMANCE SPECS (first layer of drum)
Line Pull
Lbs.(Kgs.) Line Speed FT./min(M/min.) Motor Current
0 44 (13.41) 55 amps
2000 (910) 17.8 (5.42) 149 amps
4000 (1810) 12 (3.65) 233 amps
6000 (2720) 10.7 (3.26) 311 amps
8000 (3630) 7.5 (2.28) 387 amps
10000 (4536) 5.6 (1.7) 465 amps

The winch itself is 12V DC, so is this just as simple as wiring the winch to the isolated battery? Are there any other components you would recommend installing, like battery meter? Does a hybrid inverter gain me anything here? I can't see Jeep plugged into solar/shore power while winching so I am starting to think what kind of inverter I am running is moot at this point since there are not any other power sources involved. Would the inverter be responsible for the shore line hookup to recharge the lithium battery or do I need a separate component to manage that connection?

Is this a good battery to go with?

12V 100AH Lithium Ion Battery | Group 31
Model SB100
Group Size 31
Nominal Voltage 12.8V
Capacity (amp hours) 100AH
Charge Voltage 14.4v to 14.6V
Max Charge / Discharge Current 100A (amps)
Cold Cranking Amps 1000A (amps)
Length 12.75"
Width 6.5"
Height 8.7"
Weight 28 Lbs.
Type LiFePO4
Price $1,299.99

Would a different technology battery be recommended? I came across this post from 2009, not sure how accurate it is:

The simple answer is because you cannot safely extract energy that fast from any lithium-ion battery on the market today (even if some competitors claim a crank amp rating.) Sustained high rate discharges from lithium-ion batteries will cause dangerous electrolyte venting and explosive fires. After such an uncontrolled high rate discharge permanent damage is done to the individual cells. This is a characteristic of the Lithium-ion cell's chemistry and has been confirmed with our in-house Firing Circuits battery tester.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

Price $1,299.99

Current Price? Seriously?

Seems like overkill when you can get a Grp 31 102+/- ah AGM from Northstar for $325. Or Odyssey, or Deka, or Optima, or ... Spend some of the extra money on a high output alternator and keep the battery connected to the charging circuit while winching. If your Jeep is a newer one with the can bus electronics, you can get a high idle function with some programmers. Power Wagons with the factory Warn 12K/15K winch and Grp 65 batteries work a lot better with a Grp 31, or with dual batteries. HO alternator completes the package. My DC Power Engineering 270 amp alternator fits the stock brackets and belt and puts out 119 amps at about 640 rpm idle. Some have reported up to about 160 amps at idle with that alternator.

 

[Lucky j]

Why do you want to go with lithium /ion in the fisrt place?

Price is overkill for sure. It is more than the price of the winch and like 6 time more than what you could have for a regular battery that could operate your winch.

Just some more info on the data you got for the winch. You have to know that you can tecnicaly pull 10000 lbs with that winch, but it will be on the last roll of winch cable. That means that the cable as to be unrolled from the winch to the last layer. In you pull out the cable only let say to the point that 3 layer remain, you will not be able to pull 10000 lbs maby 5000-6000 range and you could it max ratting amperage. (This just a little knowledge to get about winching)

After that, I have read somewhere that you could not hook up a lithium/ion and a regular battery together. (Someone will need to confirm this).

And why would you paid that much money when you could go with cheaper set-up that are proven for winch specialy when you do not even think that you will use it that much? If you want to go big, like mention above, go with the groupe 31 type (even if this is overkill for to use you are talking about) and go in peace for probably 10 years. You will not even need a high output alternator with that kind of reserve.

I have been running my warn hs9500i for more than 17 years with a single battery and long and hard winching situation, go a new 1000 amp regilar group 34 battery, replaced after 6 years, moved that battery to my dd and went with a optima yellow top since then and still running it.

So yep, there are beafier option out there, but you can live with more basic stuff and have reliability and fun.

But it is your passion and $$.

Keep us posted on your decision.

 

[workerdrone]

Lithium is just better in every way other than initial investment. Probably cheaper in the long run, but pricey to purchase that's for sure.

Like anything else, if you shop around you'll find that a little do-it-yourself saves a lot of $ versus commercially available ready to go solutions.

Much lighter, amazing output, full output until dead, no maintenance, mount in any position, etc.

The future. When I finally wear out my bank of golf cart batteries I will surely look into building a lithium bank for its replacement.

 

[nycgags]

Lithium is just better in every way other than initial investment. Probably cheaper in the long run, but pricey to purchase that's for sure.

Like anything else, if you shop around you'll find that a little do-it-yourself saves a lot of $ versus commercially available ready to go solutions.

Much lighter, amazing output, full output until dead, no maintenance, mount in any position, etc.

The future. When I finally wear out my bank of golf cart batteries I will surely look into building a lithium bank for its replacement.

Agreed I thought this was a given, I will list a number of advantages I am aware of.

And for the record I should have clarified, my intention is to not buy this high priced battery and have it rot away somewhere waiting for the winch to use it. I intend to build a battery bank off of it, get a fridge/freezer for my Jeep and after I move out of South Florida get a compact camper that this battery bank and energy solution can power.

Advantages of Lithium that I know of:
1. Super "Useable" Capacity. If you get a 100Ah battery that is exactly how much you can use, if you get an AGM you only get 50% usable capacity.
2. Extended Cycle Life. 5x the life span. A well cared for Lithium Iron Phosphate battery bank can expect to see 2000 to 5000 cycles and even 65-80% of its capacity beyond that, compared to best lead acid batteries that are only good for 500-1000 cycles
3. Peukert’s Losses & Voltage Sag Virtually Non Existent. The discharge curve is relatively flat, a 20% charge battery will provide nearly the same voltage as an 80% charged battery
4. Size & Weight Advantages. Compare lead acid vs. Lithium typically 58-68 lbs vs 30 lbs
5. Fast & Efficient Charging. Unlike with lead acid, there is no need for an absorption phase to get the final 20% stored. With enough amps you can fully charge a lithium ion battery in just 30 minutes.
6. Very Little Wasted Energy. Can charge to nearly 100% efficiency compared to 85% for most lead acid.
7. Climate Resistance. At -20°C, a Lithium battery that delivers a 1C current (one times its capacity), can deliver more than 80% of its energy when the AGM battery will deliver 30% of its capacity. For harsh environments (hot and cold), Lithium-Ion is the technological choice.
8. Fewer Placement Issues. They do not need to be stored upright or in a vented battery compartment.
9. Zero Maintenance Requirements. A "balancing" process is automatically achieved by the Battery Management System to make sure all cells are equally charged.

 

[nycgags]

Alternatively for $1395 I could get one of the best dual battery kits on the market made by Genesis Offroad w/ 2x Odyssey PC1500 batteries capable of 850CCA, 68Ah and 135 reserve time as well as a 200 Amp Isolator Option (may require a high output alternator to maximize potential).

I am going to be installing an sPod switch system and originally I was going to run it off of the OEM battery but now I am starting to think it might make more sense to run it off of the Lithium. I already picked up 2 sets of lights: 12" (168W, 14A, 12V, 10100 Lumens) and a 6" (84W, 7A, 12V, 5050 Lumens) reverse switched light. If I like the performance of these two and think I need even more lumens, I can add a 50" (672W, 56A, 12V, 40300 Lumens).

 

[nycgags]

I think you should at least verify some 'specs of that battery.
The specs indicate CCA number of 1000A.
Does not indicate at what time duration. But typical of batteries is 30 seconds

Do you plan to parallel several of these batteries together ?

"Max Charge / Discharge Current 100A", pretty much has your winch drawing too much over what that battery is capable to sustain.

I am trying to find specs of normal car batteries to refute what you are saying, specifically about the Max Discharge Current of 100A - I assume this is nominal capacity, which is inline with advertised capacities of automotive batteries (much less than 100A based on their capacity). I'd link a table but I do not have permissions, search for:

servicepoolen information about Odyssey (pdf)

and look at the table in the first result.

The CCA number of 1000A for the lithium battery seems to make this a non issue. FWIW the 1000A CCA number is for 5s which is inline with high end automotive batteries (previous table).

There's a youtube video on Optima batteries where they actually recommend deep cycle batteries for installation with a lot of electrical accessories including winches, you would have to search for the below on youtube:

Tech Tips 1: What is the difference between a RedTop, YellowTop and BlueTop OPTIMA Battery?

After doing some more research it looks like discharge rates in the 25C to 50C ranges are possible. This means for a 100Ah battery, 1C = 100A, 25C = 2500 Amps albeit only for 2.4 minutes for full discharge, but you get the point, I don't think the deep cycle battery is limited by the Amp requirements of the winch.

Basic common sense will tell you the wire gauge you use will limit the amps you can draw across the wire, so now I am even more confused. I'd hate to see how thick the wire is that needs to support a 456 Amp draw.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

I'd hate to see how thick the wire is that needs to support a 456 Amp draw.

Real thick. There are tables to calculate cable gauge based upon length and draw, but amperage goes up for a given load as battery voltage drops. I think my DCPE 270amp alternator called for 1/0 for the relatively short run from the alt to the batt, so I used 3/0 for everything, based on longer runs to the house batteries.

 

[Tazman]

Kimberley Kampers has some good information on Lithiam batteries for those interested. It seems that we are a bit behind in the US using this new technology.

http://files.kimberleygroup.com.au/...cvyQwrtG3icM-8suyeIzKOtPzkJPwQ&_hsmi=14398999

If that link doesn't work Google Kimberley Kampers.