Quigley Front end handling question.

[katoom400]

My 03 E250 quigley had some handling problems when I bought it used a few months ago. It had a bad case of "death wobble" and seemed to steer a little "hyper". It also rides very stiff compared to my 01 F250 (also straight axle, but leaf springs).

to cure the DW, I installed a new skyjacker Steering Stabilizer and new tires (265/75-16)

Spoke to Amy at Quigley who recomended going with an updated shorter lower torque arm w/poly bushings (supposed to bring the caster back to ~3 from the ~6 it left quigley with) and also new rubber (poly not avaialbe)track bar bushings. which I installed Wed. night. (PIA job!)

turck seemed to be a "little" more "relaxed", then had the alignment done yesterday to specs provided by quigley.

The truck now seems very nervous and hyper, drives straight but the slightest twitch of the steering wheel and whole truck wants to really pull that way.

compared to my f250 there is nothing relaxing about a long drive in the van. my 03 e350 2wd handled great (of course the quigley is a different animal)

Is this just the nature of the beast and they are all like this? or is there something I can do for it?

Thanks,

Andy

 

[Root Moose]

A steering damper does nothing to correct DW. All it does is damp the oscillations.

DW can be any number of things but given you mention hyper/light steering I immediately think the caster (alignment in general) needs to be looked at.

I'm not familiar with these machines at this level but given the largish tires I would try to get the caster to the maximum setting within specification to start. You mention that the van is now at 3 degrees and it was originally 6 degrees. Can you go the other way while still being in spec? Can you go to 7,8,9 degrees?

The extra height of the wheel means that the KPI angle in the side view may not create as large of a "drag" behind the vertical axis. Maxing the caster will hopefully add enough drag to keep DW away (if caster is the cause in this case).

It's a balancing act to get the caster where you need/want it while not getting the front prop shaft u-joints out of good operating range. Your technician may have insights if you put it on the alignment rig again.

HTH

 

[redthies]

I can't speak for all Quigleys but the company I work for used to have about 6 different E350s with both Quigley and Clydesdale 4x4 conversions. They were not quite as bad as you mention, but not great either. These rigs were pounded offroad on a daily basis by a huge crop of drivers. The only reason they held together was the absolutley BRILLIANT mechanic we have!

 

[Outback]

The Quigley conversion van I drove had a very safe and easy going handling abilities. I wouldnt have hesitated to let my then youngest daughter drive it. The way you describe this van sounds very dangerous! I would contact Quigley and see what can be done. It does sound like you kinda fixed it before you had it realigned though.

 

[katoom400]

A steering damper does nothing to correct DW. All it does is damp the oscillations.

DW can be any number of things but given you mention hyper/light steering I immediately think the caster (alignment in general) needs to be looked at.

I'm not familiar with these machines at this level but given the largish tires I would try to get the caster to the maximum setting within specification to start. You mention that the van is now at 3 degrees and it was originally 6 degrees. Can you go the other way while still being in spec? Can you go to 7,8,9 degrees?

The extra height of the wheel means that the KPI angle in the side view may not create as large of a "drag" behind the vertical axis. Maxing the caster will hopefully add enough drag to keep DW away (if caster is the cause in this case).

It's a balancing act to get the caster where you need/want it while not getting the front prop shaft u-joints out of good operating range. Your technician may have insights if you put it on the alignment rig again.

HTH

it was quigley's recomendation to go with the shorter lower torque arms to bring the caster to ~3 to reduce the possiblity of DW, the caster is currently at +2.8 (range: min +1.50 max +5.5 pref +3.5) it was @ +5.5 (max) when it left quigley.

In additon it has to go back to the alignment shop since it "drifts" to the left when I let go the wheel on straight highway every time.

 

[katoom400]

The Quigley conversion van I drove had a very safe and easy going handling abilities. I wouldnt have hesitated to let my then youngest daughter drive it. The way you describe this van sounds very dangerous! I would contact Quigley and see what can be done. It does sound like you kinda fixed it before you had it realigned though.

Yes, almost makes me wish I didn't spend $350 to get the alignment and trackbar bushings done!

 

[kjp1969]

The truck now seems very nervous and hyper, drives straight but the slightest twitch of the steering wheel and whole truck wants to really pull that way.

compared to my f250 there is nothing relaxing about a long drive in the van. my 03 e350 2wd handled great (of course the quigley is a different animal)

Is this just the nature of the beast and they are all like this? or is there something I can do for it?

Thanks,

Andy

Sounds like a bad alignment- toe out or neutral makes a vehicle more "darty". I'd suggest reviewing the "after" numbers on the alignment and perhaps have them reviewed by a better alignment guy. Its also possible that Quigley isn't giving you the best numbers to use.

 

[katoom400]

Sounds like a bad alignment- toe out or neutral makes a vehicle more "darty". I'd suggest reviewing the "after" numbers on the alignment and perhaps have them reviewed by a better alignment guy. Its also possible that Quigley isn't giving you the best numbers to use.

After just talking with the alignment tech, it apears he wrote down the toe specs incorectly they are (min -.06, max +.07, pref +.01) we are currently at +.10.

he also mentioned that the drivers side front wheel/caliper seems to to be hanging slightly (which I do remember being the case last time I had it jacked up.) which would explain the pull to the left, although before the alignment it did not pull)

 

[ntsqd]

If the correct toe doesn't change it enough I'd go back to more Caster since it sounds like it drove as it should with that setting.

 

[kjp1969]

Since death wobble usually occurs on modified or worn vehicles, I've always assumed that it has something to do with older or overstressed components. Does your mileage or use suggest that the steering components are worn? Ball joints, tie rods, drag link, etc? Are your wheel bearings in good shape?

If your alignment checks out, this is the next logical place to look. Put simply, make sure nothing is loose!

 

[Stumpalump]

All good advise here but would like to add two things. Caster IMHO is a personal preference. Little caster like you have offers nimble slow speed handling and puts less strain on your steering when crawling off road especially with a locker on. Sounds too me like more castor is what you like. That will make it cruise on the interstate nice. The second thing is the last place too look after every other component is tight and in spec. Sometimes and ussually not the cause of death wobble is bad shocks. If you don't have newer and good shocks like Bilstein or even Rancho 9000's then get them. In some rare cases it cures the last bit of wobble.

 

[katoom400]

thanks guys, I appreciate all the comments and sugestions. everything in the front end appears tight, checked ball joints and tie rod ends when I bought the van. it has 57k on it. it also doesnt feel like anything is loose in the handling, almost like it is too tight!

I bought the short torque arms on Quigley's suggestion to make the vehicle handle better and eliminate any possibility of DW. There seems to be no other way to adjust caster other than changing torque arm lengh.

It has not had the DW since I put the new steering stabilzer on, but I was afraid that the SS was only masking the problem and I wanted to find the root cause, Quigley recomended the torque arms and new trac bar bushings.

They felt that the lower caster numbers helped preven DW. and that the trac bar bushings should be replaced because the vehicle had already experienced DW and they where probably stressed.

I am hopping that bringing the toe numbers back into range will help the nervousness.


Thanks for all the responses!

Andy

 

[Photog]

Also, you will want zero camber. A tire that leans in or out, will want to turn in that direction. It might sound acceptable if they are both the same, but it is not. Going straight, everything is fine; but any deviation will cause it to dart in one direction or the other. Deviations such as ruts in the highway, side wind, slight steering input, etc.

Since this is not a race car, make sure the camber is zero, and the caster is 3 degrees or more. All of the settings need to be the same - left & right, not just within spec. They charge you plenty for an alignment, make them do it right.

Example:

Camber: left 0.00 , right 0.00

Caster: left 3.4 degrees, right 3.4 degrees

Toe: left .005, right .005 , total .01

 

[kjp1969]

I'd add that you want, if anything, a little negative camber, not positive (it may not be possible to get it to zero with the limited adjustment in your front suspension.) Positive will make the tire want to roll over on a higher speed turn when the suspension is compressed. Negative camber will flatten the tire out on its tread in the same situation.

 

[ujoint]

As stated earlier, steering stabilizers do nothing to cure death wobble. We should also explain what DW is so e-body is on the same page. There tend to be differences in different regions..... It happens when the axle is moving side to side violently, causing the steering wheel to do the same. The usual culprit is a worn trac bar bushing. I have seen a Quigley with a broken trac bar mount, so be sure to inspect it thoroughly.

I've done many SAS conversions on everything from F250's to GM trucks, including a van or two. The ideal castor should be +6 degrees. This means that the upper ball joint is "layed back" It's further to the rear of the vehicle. If Quigley says different to cure the problem, then I would take their advice, it is their suspension after all.