Anybody knows where I can obtain it in the US?
WOOD vs. METAL Trailer Wall Construction
- Thread starter Titanpat57
- Start date
Anybody knows where I can obtain it in the US?
Wavebreaker
Adventurer
http://www.kingplastic.com/products/all-products/king-starboard-family/king-starboard/
similar product offered in North America.
similar product offered in North America.
Titanpat57
Expedition Leader
Great product but extremely dense and heavy...a 5' x 12' sheet is over 400 lbs for 1" thick material.
Couldn't see a practical use for a trailer outside of a cutting board, doesn't seem to have much structural integrity without some exotic design.
gonejeeping15
Adventurer
Wood and Metal
I think I remember a while back about some exotic sports cars making their frame rails from laminated woods still today, just the oppisite of everthing else.
I think I remember a while back about some exotic sports cars making their frame rails from laminated woods still today, just the oppisite of everthing else.
Wavebreaker
Adventurer
I guess i will pipe up ..most know my personal preference.
Ill respond to one comment first.
Cons - Susceptible to water intrusion and will rot or fall apart, and not to mention weight (heavy)
Wood is susceptible to water intrusion YES. solution waterproof it. this is either accomplished by Resins or oils/penetration.the best way for longevity is by encasing the substrate within a light sheath of glass be it polyester based or Epoxy. Done right this system will protect the substrate.
As for weight wood is lighter than steel.
Example of life span. I have a small sailboat that i built as an apprentice in 1984.
This boat is still in the family. It see's regular use every year mostly by younger family members. now this thing has seen use not gentle by any means.
It was build in standard frame/plywood construction. Glassed exterior and resined interior. It has been dragged on rocks bounced off trees flipped and generally abused. I have repaired it a few times over the years BUT not because of ROT most repairs have been rigging and seats etc.Kids are brutal on some things.
Now this boat has been painted and not stored in water but its never covered it sits in the weather.
My point to the story i guess is this. IF its build right at first it will last a long time.
this one was built using polyester resins not epoxy's. In the 80's epoxy was not in general use.
The secret behind using wood is what you do to one side must be done to the other.
I have seen other comments on torsional stability of wood in off-road use. wood in general has been the primary construction medium for boats for hundreds of years.
Wood in general will twist bend and flex repeatedly for a long time, with in reason try and bend it past a certain angle it will fracture. By using epoxy on this it actually enhances this. Epoxy's are designed for this application.
The issue that arises with wood generally plywood framed box for off-road is not the plywood its the joints that will suffer. If the joint cracks you will get fatigue and water intrusion. Solution: cleat your joints,use a quality adhesive,mechanical fasteners and glass tape inside and glass sheath outside.
Unless you hit that corner severally it will never crack.
The other thing to be aware of is quality of the substrate (plywood)
Most plywood's used in general house construction be it standard,sanded one side,good one-side,or good two side, is not made with quality glues.
Glues used are generally water resistant not water proof. the other issue is voids with in the the lamination process. if your considering building from plywood by something of quality not house plywood's. voids leave small structural weak spots.
Marine grade plywood's use water proof glues. and are guaranteed void-less. the same applies to shop grade plywood's the glue is water resistant tho not water proof.but no voids.
When building with plywood and glass, resin choice has alot to play as well.
Polyester resin the general glassing resin. Will take heat better than epoxy's.
What i mean by heat is the surface temperature due to color.Don't paint it black it will break down.
Epoxy resin has no UV protection
Polyester resin has no UV protection and must be sealed prior to painting.
in boat-building polyester resin is generally gel-coated prior to painting this seals it.
Epoxy does not need this just quality primer geared for epoxy and paint.
OK that's enough sorry for the long post.
Good luck in your choices PAT..
Ill respond to one comment first.
Cons - Susceptible to water intrusion and will rot or fall apart, and not to mention weight (heavy)
Wood is susceptible to water intrusion YES. solution waterproof it. this is either accomplished by Resins or oils/penetration.the best way for longevity is by encasing the substrate within a light sheath of glass be it polyester based or Epoxy. Done right this system will protect the substrate.
As for weight wood is lighter than steel.
Example of life span. I have a small sailboat that i built as an apprentice in 1984.
This boat is still in the family. It see's regular use every year mostly by younger family members. now this thing has seen use not gentle by any means.
It was build in standard frame/plywood construction. Glassed exterior and resined interior. It has been dragged on rocks bounced off trees flipped and generally abused. I have repaired it a few times over the years BUT not because of ROT most repairs have been rigging and seats etc.Kids are brutal on some things.
Now this boat has been painted and not stored in water but its never covered it sits in the weather.
My point to the story i guess is this. IF its build right at first it will last a long time.
this one was built using polyester resins not epoxy's. In the 80's epoxy was not in general use.
The secret behind using wood is what you do to one side must be done to the other.
I have seen other comments on torsional stability of wood in off-road use. wood in general has been the primary construction medium for boats for hundreds of years.
Wood in general will twist bend and flex repeatedly for a long time, with in reason try and bend it past a certain angle it will fracture. By using epoxy on this it actually enhances this. Epoxy's are designed for this application.
The issue that arises with wood generally plywood framed box for off-road is not the plywood its the joints that will suffer. If the joint cracks you will get fatigue and water intrusion. Solution: cleat your joints,use a quality adhesive,mechanical fasteners and glass tape inside and glass sheath outside.
Unless you hit that corner severally it will never crack.
The other thing to be aware of is quality of the substrate (plywood)
Most plywood's used in general house construction be it standard,sanded one side,good one-side,or good two side, is not made with quality glues.
Glues used are generally water resistant not water proof. the other issue is voids with in the the lamination process. if your considering building from plywood by something of quality not house plywood's. voids leave small structural weak spots.
Marine grade plywood's use water proof glues. and are guaranteed void-less. the same applies to shop grade plywood's the glue is water resistant tho not water proof.but no voids.
When building with plywood and glass, resin choice has alot to play as well.
Polyester resin the general glassing resin. Will take heat better than epoxy's.
What i mean by heat is the surface temperature due to color.Don't paint it black it will break down.
Epoxy resin has no UV protection
Polyester resin has no UV protection and must be sealed prior to painting.
in boat-building polyester resin is generally gel-coated prior to painting this seals it.
Epoxy does not need this just quality primer geared for epoxy and paint.
OK that's enough sorry for the long post.
Good luck in your choices PAT..
Titanpat57
Expedition Leader
Fantastic response Wavebreaker...really...thanks for taking the time to write that up....it was very informative, and like your spectacular build, attention to detail is the key for exceptional results.
Thanks also, Bob, for your contribution, I would like you to copy and paste your comments from Dave's thread if possible, and also would like to hear from Gabe, if he would be so kind. I want to stress this thread is not to delve into "trade secrets" or to copy and capitalize off someones life work. I will be posting up my thoughts on wood (my build was a "wood pod" on a metal trailer) and why I used it. (anyone that saw my welding has figured that out)
Thanks also to the others for taking the time to respond. I see we are on the right track, and with consideration of eack others opinions, we can put forth some really helpful info, and possibly save someone some frustration in a future build. The beauty of Expo is the fountain of talent and experience....and the love of the outdoors, and to make that time to be the best it can be.
Thanks also, Bob, for your contribution, I would like you to copy and paste your comments from Dave's thread if possible, and also would like to hear from Gabe, if he would be so kind. I want to stress this thread is not to delve into "trade secrets" or to copy and capitalize off someones life work. I will be posting up my thoughts on wood (my build was a "wood pod" on a metal trailer) and why I used it. (anyone that saw my welding has figured that out)
Thanks also to the others for taking the time to respond. I see we are on the right track, and with consideration of eack others opinions, we can put forth some really helpful info, and possibly save someone some frustration in a future build. The beauty of Expo is the fountain of talent and experience....and the love of the outdoors, and to make that time to be the best it can be.
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VanIsle_Greg
I think I need a bigger truck!
I like the fact that Wavebreaker didn't take note of the fact I said he is building me a lid...lol.
Very good post WB, I couldn't agree more. I grew up around the water, we had a sailboat we were building and knew literally dozens of people with traditional Wood boats, Ferrous Cement, Fiberglass, Steel, West System you name it. Every one of the materials used to build them performed in different ways of course, all worked when designed and prepared and protected correctly. Wood when designed and prepared properly will last for generations.
I love the aluminum trailers I have been seeing, the steel builds and of course the more traditional trailer type material builds... what is best probably depends on the design and the size as much as anything (climate where it will be used too).
My M101 CDN is going to rock with a wood hat, cant wait to get together over coffee WB and chat about this. You around tomorrow??
:coffeedrink:
Very good post WB, I couldn't agree more. I grew up around the water, we had a sailboat we were building and knew literally dozens of people with traditional Wood boats, Ferrous Cement, Fiberglass, Steel, West System you name it. Every one of the materials used to build them performed in different ways of course, all worked when designed and prepared and protected correctly. Wood when designed and prepared properly will last for generations.
I love the aluminum trailers I have been seeing, the steel builds and of course the more traditional trailer type material builds... what is best probably depends on the design and the size as much as anything (climate where it will be used too).
My M101 CDN is going to rock with a wood hat, cant wait to get together over coffee WB and chat about this. You around tomorrow??
:coffeedrink:
Wavebreaker
Adventurer
Your welcome Pat. Its nice to see peoples ideas on building things.
Greg I am always around
Greg I am always around
Wavebreaker,
Great comments on ply building.
Another thing to consider in plywood, is this. You may save money using cheaper plywood, but the effort in getting it smooth, and the extra resin it takes to seal it ends up costing more than getting a good marine ply in the first place.
There is also the weight issue. Marine okoume or meranti is quite a bit lighter than hardware store pine ply.
For anyone worried about strength, consider this. I built a 12 foot sail/row boat out of cheap ply. (I wasn't smart enough to listen about the marine ply). Had it on sawhorses about 3 feet high. It fell off while I was flipping it, and hit the concrete floor right on a transom corner. No damage at all. Epoxy fillets and glass tape makes a very strong joint.
for what it's worth.
Billy
Great comments on ply building.
Another thing to consider in plywood, is this. You may save money using cheaper plywood, but the effort in getting it smooth, and the extra resin it takes to seal it ends up costing more than getting a good marine ply in the first place.
There is also the weight issue. Marine okoume or meranti is quite a bit lighter than hardware store pine ply.
For anyone worried about strength, consider this. I built a 12 foot sail/row boat out of cheap ply. (I wasn't smart enough to listen about the marine ply). Had it on sawhorses about 3 feet high. It fell off while I was flipping it, and hit the concrete floor right on a transom corner. No damage at all. Epoxy fillets and glass tape makes a very strong joint.
for what it's worth.
Billy
Heifer Boy
Adventurer
Nice to see a thread for this - I saw the other "discussion" on the other thread. LOL!!!
I've got to side with Wavebreaker and the other woodworkers on this one. I am obviously one too and have built my camper box using boat building tech. So epoxy coating for waterproofing, epoxy glue and fillets for joint strength, fibreglass for abrasion resistance. I haven't learned to weld (yet) so went with what I knew but I will definitely be building like this again. It's just so accessable to the home builder and so strong.
I way over built my camper and it's a strong as an ox despite having fairly large openings. There's no frame either because I had severe space limitations and needed every spare millimetre I could get to make it work - another reason why I shied away from using a steel or alloy frame. My external walls are just 9mm thick plus a layer of fibreglass and a few coats of epoxy. A far cry from a stapled pine frame with internal and external cladding over an inch thick.
Despite all of this my box weighs just 260kg (570lbs). This included the RTT, deep cell battery, 40ltr Engel and the fridge slide and the 2 storage drawers and kitchen box. The box alone only weighs about 140kg (300lbs). Stick a trailer chassis under it and it's a very light expo trailer. How much does yours weight Waverbreaker?
There's no way I could build that light and that strong any other way.
Most aluminium slide-on camping canopies here in Oz weigh in around 350-400kg and that's for an empty box. They also cost 3x what I could build and sell one of my boxes for.
I've got to side with Wavebreaker and the other woodworkers on this one. I am obviously one too and have built my camper box using boat building tech. So epoxy coating for waterproofing, epoxy glue and fillets for joint strength, fibreglass for abrasion resistance. I haven't learned to weld (yet) so went with what I knew but I will definitely be building like this again. It's just so accessable to the home builder and so strong.
I way over built my camper and it's a strong as an ox despite having fairly large openings. There's no frame either because I had severe space limitations and needed every spare millimetre I could get to make it work - another reason why I shied away from using a steel or alloy frame. My external walls are just 9mm thick plus a layer of fibreglass and a few coats of epoxy. A far cry from a stapled pine frame with internal and external cladding over an inch thick.
Despite all of this my box weighs just 260kg (570lbs). This included the RTT, deep cell battery, 40ltr Engel and the fridge slide and the 2 storage drawers and kitchen box. The box alone only weighs about 140kg (300lbs). Stick a trailer chassis under it and it's a very light expo trailer. How much does yours weight Waverbreaker?
There's no way I could build that light and that strong any other way.
Most aluminium slide-on camping canopies here in Oz weigh in around 350-400kg and that's for an empty box. They also cost 3x what I could build and sell one of my boxes for.
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This is what I've done. This from post #36 on my BUILD THREAD,
"I was concerned about mounting the aluminum tread plate deck, to the steel trailer. The concern was rust, where the deck would wear through the paint on the frame. My solution was to take some 3M double sided tape and attach 1/16th inch EPDM rubber strips to the tops side of the frame. I think this will help keep the deck quiet too."
I've gone with over-sized holes, nylock nuts and fender washers on the trailer side, to allow for movement and prevent metal to metal contact on the trailer side.
"I was concerned about mounting the aluminum tread plate deck, to the steel trailer. The concern was rust, where the deck would wear through the paint on the frame. My solution was to take some 3M double sided tape and attach 1/16th inch EPDM rubber strips to the tops side of the frame. I think this will help keep the deck quiet too."
I've gone with over-sized holes, nylock nuts and fender washers on the trailer side, to allow for movement and prevent metal to metal contact on the trailer side.
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I think the answer to the original question here is, it depend on what you know how to do and what tools you have access to. I owned a boat shop for ten years and have done more than my fair share of fiberglass work. I also have a fairly well outfitted woodshop and have taken three semesters of woodworking classes a the local community college. Though, I'm certain that composite construction (wood) can be lighter and stronger than metal, I chose to do my "light weight" trailer box out of aluminum. It boiled down to what was easier and cheaper for me to do. A buddy at a metal working owed me a favor so, metal was easier and cheaper. My box measures 4' X 6' and is 22" tall. All four side panels (no lid, no floor) weigh 58 lbs. To make a composite box, would have been way more work for me and how much weight could I have saved? If I saved 20%, that's 2 gallons of water. We start to split hairs as some point. If I had a mold, composite would have been better...
I think that both metal or wood can provide great solutions.
I think that both metal or wood can provide great solutions.
Photomike
White Turtle Adventures & Photography
I built a trailer that we use for hauling gear all out of wood, reason was as stated by others - it is what I knew and was able to do myself.
Here is a link to our build - sorry on another forum and do not want to rewrite it for here.
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/23096670/srt/pa/pging/1/page/1.cfm
After using it a lot I have had a couple issues with the build loosing up, nothing serious just readjust and tighten the screws or bolts and we are off. I can see the benefits of metal as less chance of wear and tear but at the same time the cost would be a lot more - I would have needed someone to do the work for me and with each tweak of the idea I would have been back paying more. I should have used a resin to seal the corners but I was not sure what the trailer would end up like so I did not want to make anything permanent to soon then it hit the road and I have been using it since. It is very water tight, I could make it even more water tight with a redesign of the front lid but so far I have been happy. The one thing that I do not like with the wood (loosening up of some of the screws/bolts) is also one of the good things. After one rough trip we got to camp and found that the back door was loose from all the bouncing. Set up camp and got out the tool box and within minutes it was repaired.
If I had a shop and the equipment for working with metal I think I would build one out of metal, that being said maybe it is just the grass is greener idea and once I started using the metal one I would find reasons that I like wood more.
Here is a link to our build - sorry on another forum and do not want to rewrite it for here.
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/23096670/srt/pa/pging/1/page/1.cfm
After using it a lot I have had a couple issues with the build loosing up, nothing serious just readjust and tighten the screws or bolts and we are off. I can see the benefits of metal as less chance of wear and tear but at the same time the cost would be a lot more - I would have needed someone to do the work for me and with each tweak of the idea I would have been back paying more. I should have used a resin to seal the corners but I was not sure what the trailer would end up like so I did not want to make anything permanent to soon then it hit the road and I have been using it since. It is very water tight, I could make it even more water tight with a redesign of the front lid but so far I have been happy. The one thing that I do not like with the wood (loosening up of some of the screws/bolts) is also one of the good things. After one rough trip we got to camp and found that the back door was loose from all the bouncing. Set up camp and got out the tool box and within minutes it was repaired.
If I had a shop and the equipment for working with metal I think I would build one out of metal, that being said maybe it is just the grass is greener idea and once I started using the metal one I would find reasons that I like wood more.
Have any of you built your frame out of wood. The frame is the most important part of the trailer, at least in my opinion. I see no reason if the upper is as strong as steel, and I could see that being possible, but my doubts are very few are making trailers to the boating industry standards. That of course is a guess.
I use wood in my trailers for the outer shell, but tech screwed, bolted to the metal frame, the wood is also glued to the out fiberglass covering.
Aluminum and steel can not contact each other, some type of chemical reaction destroys the aluminum over years, or at least as I have been told.
The reson for a plastic/polymer to attach the walls is that the wood, is considered to break down over time. Now I am talking 25 foot and above trailers, the twist breaks it down, the bolts loosen and eventually the walls become loose. That is the main draw back on moving to the aluminum walls. I do not know if it would be so disruptive on these smaller trailers.
The RV industry no longer uses steel walls on their trailers. They use the foam aluminum type. But on a smaller trailer, you can afford the added weight I think.
But I still feel a serious off road trailer, flexing over rocks, drop offs, dragging corners, is a lot different than the affects of boats and water. Comparing apples to oranges.
I have learned alot reading this and feel that a well made wood walled trailer following the boat building guide is a true option. Are the competitors trailers made that way. I have never seen anything on the build of or design of them. I go off of history in the industry we are talking about.
I use wood in my trailers for the outer shell, but tech screwed, bolted to the metal frame, the wood is also glued to the out fiberglass covering.
Aluminum and steel can not contact each other, some type of chemical reaction destroys the aluminum over years, or at least as I have been told.
The reson for a plastic/polymer to attach the walls is that the wood, is considered to break down over time. Now I am talking 25 foot and above trailers, the twist breaks it down, the bolts loosen and eventually the walls become loose. That is the main draw back on moving to the aluminum walls. I do not know if it would be so disruptive on these smaller trailers.
The RV industry no longer uses steel walls on their trailers. They use the foam aluminum type. But on a smaller trailer, you can afford the added weight I think.
But I still feel a serious off road trailer, flexing over rocks, drop offs, dragging corners, is a lot different than the affects of boats and water. Comparing apples to oranges.
I have learned alot reading this and feel that a well made wood walled trailer following the boat building guide is a true option. Are the competitors trailers made that way. I have never seen anything on the build of or design of them. I go off of history in the industry we are talking about.