1500 AWD Post-lift alignment?

[drsmonkey]

Did anyone else out there have problems getting a good alignment after lifting your van?

I'm at about 3+" lift with new keys and Bilsteins. In order to get the Toe and camber correct the caster was sacrificed and is just barely at +0.5 ish. The front end feels a little unstable at speed, but not horrible.

Coming from lifted IFS Toyotas I know that having caster around +3 is ideal, usually achieved with new UCA's. I'm thinking that the van might drive better at speed around that number as well, or at least within OEM spec.

Looking at Moog's sight it seems that a lot of Chevy's truck, van, and SUV UCA's are shared.

To me it looks like the options are in order of lowest to highest expense.

Moog adjustable ball joints

Moog UCA with offset bushing This looks like it mostly adjusts for camber, but might bring the camber back to the point you can get good caster?

Or possible Rough Country UCA for 2-3" lift

Anybody tried any of the above? Any alignment nerds out there want to help me out? Other options any one has tried?

On a truck that get's wheeled there is a lot of info out there on UCA's and alignment but for our vans, not so much. The two Moog options seem less than ideal, and let's just say I would never consider any of the above for the Toyotas I've owned or own. I will likely push the van harder than most offroad, but considering what it is you can only go so far.

As soon as I have the interior build completed I am expecting to lower the front a little as the rear (2500 Suburban springs with Bilsteins) gets weighted in order to stay level. May just wait until then to deal with the alignment.

 

[wjeeper]

Any alignment nerds out there want to help me out?

I am in the same boat myself. Once the torsion bars were cranked to the droop stops there was absolutely zero caster on the front end once the camber and toe were close enough not to kill the tires. I lowered mine down to the 2-2.5" range and the front end felt much less unsettled on the highway. Although I can feel it doesn't have quite enough caster to really return to center and track strait down the road. If memory serves me right I lost almost 2° of caster. I like to run more caster with bigger tires, something in the 3-5° range is where I would like to be sitting.

On a truck that get's wheeled there is a lot of info out there on UCA's and alignment but for our vans, not so much. The two Moog options seem less than ideal, and let's just say I would never consider any of the above for the Toyotas I've owned or own. I will likely push the van harder than most offroad, but considering what it is you can only go so far.

Good news is the upper and lower control arms in our vans are the same as 99-06 trucks! So any aftermarket upper control arm will fit and there are quite a few options out there..........I just wouldn't run those rough country arms, they look super chintzy:Wow1: Lots of the upper options out there run uniballs. Not a huge fan because in the wet/dirt/grime of the winter they just don't last. (and winters up in the hole never seem to end) Not a fan of the adjustable balljoints, a buddy had them on his s-10 and we resorted to welding them in to keep them from getting knocked out of alignment constantly.

I have some ideas up my sleeve for getting some more performance out of our suspensions. Just gotta find the time to actually get it started!

How goes your build?

 

[drsmonkey]

Good news is the upper and lower control arms in our vans are the same as 99-06 trucks! So any aftermarket upper control arm will fit and there are quite a few options out there..........I just wouldn't run those rough country arms, they look super chintzy:Wow1: Lots of the upper options out there run uniballs. Not a huge fan because in the wet/dirt/grime of the winter they just don't last. (and winters up in the hole never seem to end) Not a fan of the adjustable balljoints, a buddy had them on his s-10 and we resorted to welding them in to keep them from getting knocked out of alignment constantly.

I have some ideas up my sleeve for getting some more performance out of our suspensions. Just gotta find the time to actually get it started!

How goes your build?

Agreed on the Rough country UCAs. Other option is Camburg, but it looks like they are no longer making them for early Silverados. I prefer ball joints over uni-ball for DD's, and I haven't seen a ball joint version for Chevy. There are also ebay UCA's that I wouldn't trust. At least they have some gussetting, unlike the Rough Country.

The build continues to progress slowly. I've been working on a 4runner lately, but I'm about to get going again on the van. Since I put the topper on I can't get it into my garages, so progress slowed for a while, we have had an epic winter. With all the AWD build threads out there I don't feel like I have much to add so I haven't been updating the thread. Plus between having a baby and my slow internet connection it has been hard to find time to wrench let alone post about it. Got a trip coming up soon, so I'll be back at it.

I'd be interested to see what you might come up with for our vans, compared to the Toyotas I've built the suspension options and performance are definitely lacking. I do have a Hellwig rear sway bar showing up tomorrow. Hopefully that helps with body roll, if not will start looking into custom valved Fox shocks from Agile Offroad.

First need to sort out the alignment.

 

[TeleSteve]

My caster is still 3.75-4 degrees with 3" torsion lift.
I looked for UCA for our vans too. Rough country only makes them for 88-98 and 2007+. Those ebay ones you linked are for 2007+. The vans are the same as 99-06.
The only ball joint ones I found are Cognito.
http://www.cognitomotorsports.com/chevy-gmc/1999-2006-1500-6-lug/upper-control-arms/

 

[wjeeper]

I prefer ball joints over uni-ball for DD's, and I haven't seen a ball joint version for Chevy.

Cognito motorsports makes some with ball joints. I have mixed feelings about a bolt in ball joint though.

Those fleabay arms don't look all that bad! The price is pretty decent too.

The build continues to progress slowly. I've been working on a 4runner lately, but I'm about to get going again on the van. Since I put the topper on I can't get it into my garages, so progress slowed for a while, we have had an epic winter. With all the AWD build threads out there I don't feel like I have much to add so I haven't been updating the thread. Plus between having a baby and my slow internet connection it has been hard to find time to wrench let alone post about it. Got a trip coming up soon, so I'll be back at it.

I'd be interested to see what you might come up with for our vans, compared to the Toyotas I've built the suspension options and performance are definitely lacking. I do have a Hellwig rear sway bar showing up tomorrow. Hopefully that helps with body roll, if not will start looking into custom valved Fox shocks from Agile Offroad.

First need to sort out the alignment.

Sounds like you have been plenty busy! The wife tells me I have to get my van done before summer.......its not gonna happen! I hear you that its hard to get motivated to work on it outside, I haven't really worked on mine in a few months now.

I am working with EMF rod ends and they are probably going to be making me some of their sealed uniball replacements. They have a cap on the top that seals out the crap and a boot on the bottom. Plus they are greasable so you can keep them lubricated and flush out the contaminants with fresh grease!

Funny you mention getting a rear sway bar, I ditched my front sway bar a few months ago and haven't missed it for a second. Hopefully in the next few weeks I will be ordering some custom springs for the rear. My wife has a bad back so unless the suspension is dialed in she wont tag along. Hopefully the suspension will end up "mid travel"

 

[drsmonkey]

Cognito motorsports makes some with ball joints. I have mixed feelings about a bolt in ball joint though.

Those fleabay arms don't look all that bad! The price is pretty decent too.




Sounds like you have been plenty busy! The wife tells me I have to get my van done before summer.......its not gonna happen! I hear you that its hard to get motivated to work on it outside, I haven't really worked on mine in a few months now.

I am working with EMF rod ends and they are probably going to be making me some of their sealed uniball replacements. They have a cap on the top that seals out the crap and a boot on the bottom. Plus they are greasable so you can keep them lubricated and flush out the contaminants with fresh grease!

Funny you mention getting a rear sway bar, I ditched my front sway bar a few months ago and haven't missed it for a second. Hopefully in the next few weeks I will be ordering some custom springs for the rear. My wife has a bad back so unless the suspension is dialed in she wont tag along. Hopefully the suspension will end up "mid travel"

I had some alignment issues on a trip Hole in the Rock road that resulted in cupping a tire pretty badly, and a parking lot alignment using knipex, vise grips, and the tiltmeter on my iPhone. When I go home I ordered up the cognito UCA's (thanks for the heads up), new cams, bolts, and pins. I installed everything and dropped my front lift down a little bit. Still have a little front end bounce from 55-65mph, but I'm pretty sure the shop forgot to rotate my tires as requested and it is just the cupping on that tire. Need to rotate and see if it helps before getting my new tires installed.

I don't have the specs in front of me, but roughly this is what I ended up with as far as alignment.

At approximately 3" of lift. Camber near zero, max caster was near zero (cams were pretty much maxed out)

At aprroximately 2" of lift with Cognito UCA's with ball jointed mounted underneath. Camber near zero, max caster is near +3.

Return to center is way better, but the caster is not as good as I was hoping for (+4-5). Drives fine though. I figure my the stacked tolerances on my van just mean that I don't get as much positive caster as most others, but figure the UCA's got me an additional 3 degrees. I'm going to live with it at this point, have some drive train problems to deal with, interior to finish up, a little more electrical to do, etc, etc, etc.

Also installed the rear sway bar, definitely helps with getting pushed around by the wind with the hightop, definitely does not help offroad. I will likely remove both and get some custom valved Fox shocks instead at some point. Not happy with the dampening of the Bilsteins, not enough low speed compression, too much high speed compression, not enough rebound dampening for the spring rates I'm at. For now I will leave it as is because the limiting factor while wheeling is my gearing (got 3.42 diffs).

Someday I will get around to updating my build thread and put all the info in there.

 

[wjeeper]

Man Hole in the Rock Road is pure hell on suspensions! Last time out there I destroyed a shock, shock mount, mushed a bumpstop and a popped a tire...........I hate that damn road.

It sounds like you got the caster a lot better with the cognito UCA's! My van has no return to center now (but then again I cut off droop stops and am running almost 4" of crank temporarily) If your looking for stability AND offroad capability I would strongly recommend some custom springs from Weldtec Designs. I am running a set of custom springs and the sway with the "TV" top and 5" of lift the body sway feels like a stock van. I know Jeremy can whip them up in any height you want............not cheap though!

What high top did you end up going with?

 

[drsmonkey]

I got a Fiberine 20" Bubble top, with sliding windows like a couple others out there. I went with new, cruising junkyards isn't a good option for me due to location.

I'm always jealous when I read about you (and others) scoring parts, but that's the price you pay for living in paradise.

I really need to start updating my thread, but don't have an efficient way of dealing with photos, and I have a 1.5mb/s max connection at home + zero spare time.

If it is a choice between working on the van (and 4Runner, and trailer) or posting about it...

 

[drsmonkey]

Want to add a few things about the Cognito UCA's in case any one else stumbles on this thread.

Cognito recommends using limit straps to avoid damaging the UCA's. It looks like the reason is that the droop stops will eventually dent the tubular arms.

There isn't much room on the van to mount the straps without contacting the shock boots using the mounting location Cognito recommends for the 1/2 ton trucks. I made them fit, but my shock boots are now torn after just a few road miles. Not too worried about that, but I am also maxed out on adjustment on the straps and won't be able to go any shorter as the straps stretch.

I'll eventually fab up a bracket to weld on to the shock tower to move the upper mounting point over. You could also modify the arm or droop stop, but not sure I want to risk welding on the UCA or eliminating the droop limit completely.

 

[drsmonkey]

Another note on these UCA's...

With my OEM UCA's on and alignment essentially zero for all three specs my alignment cams were just about maxed out and equal on all 4 bolts.

With the new UCA's installed the alignment cams are just about maxed out at +3 degrees of camber on one side of the van, on the other side the cams are adjusted to the middle of the cam range. The shop said that they were able to get more caster on that side, but had to bring it back to +3 to match the other side that is maxed out on the cams.

Not sure what is going on there...couple possibilities come to mind though. I'm going to call Cognito and see if they have any input.