1st Gen Sequoia vs GMT800 Suburban Advice

[Luckie1999]

Hello,

(soon to be home) deployed Soldier here with a little money to burn and in need of some advice.

Trying to choose between a 1st Gen Sequoia or a GMT800 Suburban as my first dedicated over-landing platform. Both seem like strong, reliable full size vehicles from my research, but I'm wondering if there is a big difference in off-road capability. From what I gather, it seems on paper the Sequoia has the edge with better approach/departure angles, ground clearance, center diff, and engine reliability but the suburban has more interior/roof space and is a a better price point in my area.

Brief summary of my intended use for context:

- Fit family of 4 and 2 dogs for weekend camping adventures here in the Pacific Northwest (Have a separate daily driver).
- Able to sleep the wife and me (or me and the dog) on occasion for getaways, hunting trips etc. in a "4x4 camper" type configuration (similar to the great rigs built by www.suboverland.com ).
- Mainly for forestry/BLM roads and light overlanding use, but want as much over-capability as I can get away with on a budget build to get out of trouble spots if need be.
- Looking to spend about 10k for rig and about 2-4k for initial investment in tires, basic upgrades to start.
- Have a garage/driveway to do my own upgrades and repairs, but only modest experience working on vehicles.

Thanks in advance for any help or opinions and see you out in the back country soon!

 

[hbabler]

Thanks for your service!

Well I’m a true believer in suburban/excursion sized vehicles. I don’t think even a Toyota can touch a suburban for reliability. My GMT800 had 300k on it when I sold it. My wife’s GMT900 has 317k and is still a daily driver.

I think with 4 people and 2 dogs space will be a premium and you will enjoy the extra space the suburban provides. I would do a small lift and slightly bigger tires and it will go a lot of places that will surprise you. Look at CrazyDrei for some inspiration as to where you can take one and rayra for some great DIY mods.


Good luck.

 

[calicamper]

I have the first gen 06 Sequoia and looking to possibly upgrade to a new Tahoe or Yukon soon.

The 1st gen Sequoia is reliable and decently roomy we do 2700-2900 mile trips every summer with ours. The 4.7 is thirsty I do 15mpg in town and road trips we run typically 16mpg unless its a huge tail wind and or 65mph or less speeds we rarely see 18mpg. The 5spd AT is solid. The weak spot is cross up trail sections the 1st gen will get stopped in its tracks if you lift a front and opposing rear tire. But the center locker which the GM alternatives don’t have does offer pretty good trail capabilities. Most Sequoia owners don’t get into big tires given they do mess up your highway performance and I’ve been told the front diff doesn’t like going too big.

The 4.7 needs a water pump /timing belt at 100k. Most sellers are dumping them without that service done. Its about $1000 deal.

The 4.7 at sea level and just local trips is ok on lower grade fuel 87 but road trips running the premium 91 grade makes a big difference like pinging vs smooth proper running the owners manual mentions the fuel grade thing. I run premium 91 fuel in ours on any highway trip. Mine is a low mileage soccer mom rig 107,000.

Passenger front seat doesn’t have lumbar support drives my wife crazy. If I can’t find a replacement I like Ill just add after market lumbar.

The new Tahoes / Yukons get 17-18 in town and 20-24 highway couple of dads have them and convinced me to go look at them.

The G80 locking ish GM rear end is sorta a love hate with GM types some like it some hate it. But the G80 ability to lock up would be advantageous over the first Gen Sequoia on crossed up stuff.

The Sequoia is slightly narrower and has a little better stock ground clearance. I think each has plus’s and minuses. I’ve had ours 10 yrs.

 

[Buddha.]

The weak spot is cross up trail sections the 1st gen will get stopped in its tracks if you lift a front and opposing rear tire. But the center locker which the GM alternatives don’t have does offer pretty good trail capabilities.

It’s not that the GM doesn’t have a locking center diff, it doesn’t have a center diff at all and is therefore always “locked”. This hurts street ability more than trail performance.
Unless you’re referring to a AWD model, like a Denali.

 

[calicamper]

The GM engines are better thats for sure. The premium fuel need in the Toyota 4.7 isn’t ideal. The GM mileage is better. The used prices with GM are far better. You can get a much nicer newer lower mileage GM for the same price as an older higher mileage Sequoia.

The Tahoe and Yukon are just very very slightly larger than the Sequoia in foot print. Side by side they are close but the GM twins are slightly wider.

 

[Deleted member 9101]

Suburban, hands down. Same crappy fuel economy and much roomier. It doesn't come with the premium price that Yotas get, even if they are trashed. Depending on what's under the hood it's also much more powerful.

The after market support for the Suburban dwarfs what's available for the Yota. The Suburban is also more common, meaning used parts and used upgrades are easier and cheaper

The "LS" motor is great and there is a plethora of performance upgrades available. Of you have the 5.3 and it goes belly up (or you are feeling froggy) you can swap in the 6.0 over a weekend.

 

[Martinjmpr]

It’s not that the GM doesn’t have a locking center diff, it doesn’t have a center diff at all and is therefore always “locked”. This hurts street ability more than trail performance.
Unless you’re referring to a AWD model, like a Denali.

That's not exactly true. The AutoTrack 4wd system (I think that's what it's called) has an "Automatic 4wd" setting that is kind of a half-assed center differential. I believe it works by using the slippage sensors from the ABS to activate the 4wd system. It's not as good as having a true center differential like the Sequoia or 03-09 4runner, but it's better than having to manually choose between 2wd and 4wd.

The controller for the AutoTrack looks like this:



You can run that in "Auto 4wd" all the time and it will stay in 2wd until it senses wheel slippage and then it will switch to 4wd. Some people in the Snow Belt put their trucks into "Auto 4wd" when the first snowflake flies and leave it there until next Spring.

All 4wd Suburban/Tahoes have the AutoTrack system - EXCEPT for a very few that were actually made with an AWD system with a true center differential. Unlike the AWD system on the GMC Denali and Cadillac Escalade (which is "invisible" in the sense that it has no switches or controls), the AWD system in the Suburban/Tahoe has a low range. I don't know if the center differential can be locked or not (there seems to be conflicting info on the Internet.) The AWD system was only offered in 2004 and 2005 I believe. I have heard the AWD system called "stabilitrack" but that is confusing because GM also referrers to their anti-skid system as "stabilitrak". In any case, an AWD Suburban/Tahoe has a 4wd control panel that looks like this:



Notice the absence of a 2wd position - these vehicles are full time 4wd. I don't know if pressing the 2nd button down (the high range 4wd) locks the center diff or not - research on the internet does not seem to be clear on that and I don't know anybody who actually owns one. I presume the low range locks the center diff, but maybe not.

Not that it's really a factor. 99% of all 4wd Suburban/Tahoe's you see will have the standard AutoTrack 4wd system. AWD Suburban/Tahoes are as rare as hen's teeth.

 

[Martinjmpr]

The GMT800 platform has some known issues, but they are well documented and there's enough of an owner base that fixes are well established. From my own perspective using a GMT800 Suburban for the past 3 years as a tow vehicle to pull a small-to medium-sized travel trailer through the Colorado Rockies, the biggest issue is the 4L60 transmission in the 1500 models.

If you don't plan on pulling a trailer, or you will only be pulling in relatively flat terrain, you likely will have no issues. I'm pretty certain that we put more stress on our old 'Burb than it really could handle and that's why I went through two transmissions in it.

If you DO plan on pulling a trailer, I'd urge you to consider the more expensive and more difficult to find 2500 model with the 6.0 V8 and the stronger 4L80 transmission. If you can't get a 2500, at the very least, put the biggest transmission cooler you can into the truck right away. Chevy stupidly put a very small trans cooler right behind the "bowtie" on the grill which prevents it from getting much airflow. A new trans cooler will significantly drop trans temps and can be installed in an afternoon (trust me, I've got two left hands, if I can install one, ANYONE can!)

Other than the transmission, "issues" with the GMT800 are relatively minor. Things like stepper motors in the instrument panel (if you're handy with a soldering gun you can fix this yourself. I paid $300 to have mine completely rebuilt with green LED's and an added transmission temp gauge and it works great.) The 5.3 engine isn't super powerful but it's very reliable.

I've replaced the alternator twice. The good news is that my first replacement was purchased at an Auto Zone with a "lifetime" warranty. So 2 1/2 years later when I took the alternator back to them, they looked up my previous purchase and just handed me a brand new alternator, no questions asked. Alternator replacement on one of these trucks is literally a 20 minute job (for me - some of the more accomplished mechanics here could to it in half that time.)

Great thing about Chevy trucks is you can literally find parts anywhere in the US. If you're in Resume Speed, Montana and need an alternator for your Toyota, it's hit-or-miss. But guaranteed they will have one for a Chevy.

Lifting a GMT-800 couldn't be easier, as long as you limit your lift to 2 - 3" or so (and realistically, you're not going to be taking a 3 ton beast like this on any gnarly jeep trails anyway.) Yes, you can go crazy with 6" lifts and 37" tires, though I'd be concerned about CV joints being damaged at that point.

I'm in the process of replacing my GMT800 with a newer F-150. It's not that I don't like the 'Burb, it's just that at 187k miles it's getting a little long in the tooth and it struggles badly up mountain grades when pulling the trailer.

The biggest problem with using the Suburban as a tow vehicle in the mountains is the 4 speed 4L60 transmission, or more accurately, the combination of the 4L60 and the 3.73 gears. It constantly jumps back and forth between 1st and 2nd gear when ascending a high pass - 1st is too low an 2nd is too high. Same thing happens between 2 and 3. If ever there was a vehicle that badly needed more gears in the transmission, it's this one, at least when towing.

When not towing there are ZERO issues. Also I've gotten as much as 18.5 MPG when not pulling a trailer and driving on 2 lane mountain roads. With a 31 gallon tank and a comfortable 15 mpg on the highway (again, NOT TOWING) you have a comfortable range of well over 400 miles.

I'm sure going to miss the interior space! As my signature says, owning a Suburban means no longer being able to say "we don't have room for that." With a Suburban you have room for EVERYTHING!

 

[jeep-N-montero]

We bought our 2003 Yukon 2500 almost 3 years ago from the original owner, other than normal upkeep it has required zero effort on our part. It has the 6.0 with 3.73 gears, it does search a bit when towing but we live at 4500 feet and tow up to 8500 feet fairly often. I added a trans cooler from a ford super duty just to be safe, even in 95 degree heat the trans might hit 185 going up the passes towing to the lakes. The 2500 does ride rougher than the 1500 due to the suspension, so keep that in mind when shopping.

 

[Martinjmpr]

The biggest regret I'll have getting rid of the 'Burb is that as clichéd as it sounds, "they really don't make them like that anymore." Modern full sized truck-based SUVs like the Suburban, Tahoe and Expedition have morphed into supersized mini vans, with their power liftgates, power folding seats, and multiple screens.

Not that there's anything wrong with that - I presume that GM and Ford are simply responding to the demands of the market. In the case of the Suburban/Tahoe/Yukon/Expedition, that is likely upscale soccer moms shuttling kids and limousine/car service companies ferrying powerful executives and their minions to and from the airport. For those purposes the "oversized mini van" works well.

But unfortunately in doing this, they've eliminated anything that makes it into an "SUV" - that is, they've removed both "sport" and "utility" from the vehicle.

One thing I love about the GMT800 is that I can remove the 3rd row seat (it's a heavy SOB but it comes out in just a few seconds), drop the 2nd row and I now have a completely flat load deck, 8 feet long and just over 4 feet wide, that is completely protected from the weather. I can configure that inside space any way I want.



I once hauled a motorcycle sidecar in there with plenty of room to spare. Didn't even have to remove the wheel!

The modern versions, with their power folding seats, don't have nearly as much interior room. And the room they have is filled with buttons, switches and other "comfort items" for the passengers. Which, again, makes sense if you think of it as a mini van and not as a "Sport Utility Vehicle."

And I have heard that the current K2XX versions of the GM SUVs will be the last ones to have the rear live axle. Future versions will have IRS like the Expedition, which pretty much negates any kind of serious off-road cred.

Will we ever see the return of the truly "utilitarian" SUV? It's hard to say. Crew cab pickups seem to have replaced them in my Suburban neighborhood. And people who truly need INTERIOR space now have a new crop of large vans (like the Sprinter) to choose from.

 

[Luckie1999]

Thanks for all of the great info everyone, I was honestly leaning toward the Sequoia before this post but all the great input has definitely swayed me to the suburban side. My main concerns were ground clearance and reliability and it sounds like a '02-'04 burb with somewhere between 100-150k miles and a 2-3" lift will meet my needs well.

Also, great discussion about whether or not it has an actual center diff. I try my best to research as much as I can before I bother people with questions on the forum, but for the life of me I couldn't find a straight answer online about it.

 

[ExplorerTom]

All good points about the Suburban, but you should at least take a look at this guy’s build. It’s extremely well organized and thought out if nothing else.

2002 Sequoia Limited 4WD

GOAL: My goal for this daily driver is centered around exploring/camping trips and bumming around the mountains during the winter months. Because of her size, tucked and low slung were a requirement. I did not want to unnecessarily add width and height unless it served a real purpose...

www.expeditionportal.com

 

[calicamper]

The biggest regret I'll have getting rid of the 'Burb is that as clichéd as it sounds, "they really don't make them like that anymore." Modern full sized truck-based SUVs like the Suburban, Tahoe and Expedition have morphed into supersized mini vans, with their power liftgates, power folding seats, and multiple screens.

Not that there's anything wrong with that - I presume that GM and Ford are simply responding to the demands of the market. In the case of the Suburban/Tahoe/Yukon/Expedition, that is likely upscale soccer moms shuttling kids and limousine/car service companies ferrying powerful executives and their minions to and from the airport. For those purposes the "oversized mini van" works well.

But unfortunately in doing this, they've eliminated anything that makes it into an "SUV" - that is, they've removed both "sport" and "utility" from the vehicle.

One thing I love about the GMT800 is that I can remove the 3rd row seat (it's a heavy SOB but it comes out in just a few seconds), drop the 2nd row and I now have a completely flat load deck, 8 feet long and just over 4 feet wide, that is completely protected from the weather. I can configure that inside space any way I want.

View attachment 534392

I once hauled a motorcycle sidecar in there with plenty of room to spare. Didn't even have to remove the wheel!

The modern versions, with their power folding seats, don't have nearly as much interior room. And the room they have is filled with buttons, switches and other "comfort items" for the passengers. Which, again, makes sense if you think of it as a mini van and not as a "Sport Utility Vehicle."

And I have heard that the current K2XX versions of the GM SUVs will be the last ones to have the rear live axle. Future versions will have IRS like the Expedition, which pretty much negates any kind of serious off-road cred.

Will we ever see the return of the truly "utilitarian" SUV? It's hard to say. Crew cab pickups seem to have replaced them in my Suburban neighborhood. And people who truly need INTERIOR space now have a new crop of large vans (like the Sprinter) to choose from.

Yeah agreed the solid rear axle goes away it changes the nature of these SUVs. Also the trend to go really wide makes them less appealing for city use. They all seem to get wider when they go to full independent suspension. They also seem to get less utility focused interior design

 

[Martinjmpr]

I haven't seen this confirmed yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if GM kept a fleet version of the 2500 or 3500 Suburban in production with a solid rear axle.

These would not be available to the general public but would likely be sold to government agencies and fleet buyers to be used as "executive limousines" with an optional "armor" package.

 

[Fierokid]

I use my 02 2500 suburban for a tow/hunting rig. It's a supercharged 8.1L with the 4l80 (I've heard it's actually a 4l85 but I thought that was just later years). I doubt you need the power of the 8.1L or a supercharger but I don't think you can really go wrong with a burb.. I pull regularly a ~7K camper and I cant even feel it behind me unless theres a MASSIVE side wind.. I have maxed out at over my 12K tow limit and even then the burb handled the weight pretty good even though it was a short distance. But i tow my trailer 4ish hours to my hunting area and then hunt for 2ish weeks and it's my runaround for that too. It's gone anywhere I've wanted it to without any issues. Mud/snowy terrain was just fine. Although it's a little wide it still went on some narrower jeep trails (maybe even side x side?) and my only issue was a one time mistake of thinking I could fit between 2 trees and knocked a mirror. It's still stock aside from the supercharger and I've found its approach/deparcher and break over limits a couple times so a lift and bigger tires would be nice. Maybe even some different bumpers to help alleviate the approach and departure angles some. I can't say yes or no to a 1st gen yota but I don't think you can really go wrong with a burb. Even though the burbs aren't typically upgraded the trucks are frequently and they are similar enough you can get away with most of their components