2.1 millon acres gone - Omnibus Public Land Management Act of 2009

[silverscout]

The slippery slope that these small innocuous closures represent are all well intended till one day they are so common place we won't blink an eye.

"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
David Hume (1711-1776)

 

[kellymoe]

The slippery slope that these small innocuous closures represent are all well intended till one day they are so common place we won't blink an eye.

"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
David Hume (1711-1776)

Well said. As I said a before the closures in my area didnt happen overnight, it was a road here a trail there and in the span of 20 years nearly all dirt roads in the Angeles Nat. Forest. We do have the Azusa Cyn OHVA, but unless your into mud bogging it's a pretty useless area.

 

[paulj]

Well said. As I said a before the closures in my area didnt happen overnight, it was a road here a trail there and in the span of 20 years nearly all dirt roads in the Angeles Nat. Forest. We do have the Azusa Cyn OHVA, but unless your into mud bogging it's a pretty useless area.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/angeles/recreation/ohv.shtml

The Angeles National Forest provides 364 miles of designated OHV routes (roads). Because of the many different uses of the Forest and the delicate environment, all OHV travel must be on designated routes and trails or in designated Open Areas.

 

[calamaridog]

I'll make a blanket challenge: I don't believe anyone here will, in his or her lifetime, come remotely close to exploring all the existing roads and trails open to 4WD use in the U.S. - or even in one state. We're not running out of roads. We are running short of places where there aren't roads.

Some here are sure trying

 

[kellymoe]

Paul,

What you need to look at is this little pearl:

{Occasionally areas may be closed due to emergency situations, for resource protection, or during specific seasons when disturbances may drive animals from important habitat. These closures are usually temporary, and your patience and cooperation is appreciated. Click on this link for information concerning the closure of portions of the Littlerock OHV Area. }

I would venture to say that there is less than 80 miles of dirt road to travel of the 364 they state. 80 miles is really and I mean really being generous.
The "temporary" closures unfortunetly have turned out to be permanent. I know it's easy to do a search on the computer and pull these facts up but dont believe everything you read. No roads that have been closed temporarily in the last 20 years in the Angeles Nat. Forest, except for winter closures, have ever been reopened.

 

[luk4mud]

Quote:
(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and, except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area

Paul-
I think this says that wilderness= road closures? As I look at the maps on McKeon's website of the new Bristlecone and White Mountains wilderness areas, it sure looks like the paved road into the main bristlecone grove goes through both area and will be closed, per the above.

On the other hand, why would the visitor center be scheduled to be rebuilt? Can anyone solve this mystery for us?

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Nathan, I too can post plenty of photos of roads going into wilderness areas. Like this one in Nevada:

Trouble is, this road and many, many just like it were put in after the wilderness area was in place, by self-centered morons who cut the fence and drove right on in.

Fighting wilderness because you think you're losing access to public land is a misplaced battle. Fight stuff like this instead, fight land agency budget cuts. That would do some real good. Think beyond your own convenience when you consider wilderness. It's a good thing to have whether or not you ever go there.

 

[sinuhexavier]

Think beyond your own convenience when you consider wilderness. It's a good thing to have whether or not you ever go there.

This brings up an interesting question, I wonder how many people on both sides of the fight, have actually spent any time in a true wilderness area?

If someone hasn't experienced true wilderness, how could that person possibly understand its value?

 

[Ursidae69]

This brings up an interesting question, I wonder how many people on both sides of the fight, have actually spent any time in a true wilderness area?

If someone hasn't experienced true wilderness, how could that person possibly understand its value?

The majority of my recreating each year falls in wilderness areas. It's the best place for finding nature and it makes for better birding.

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Good question, Sinuhe. However, I think it is possible to appreciate wilderness on a purely intellectual basis, by realizing that it represents our best efforts as a society to preserve habitat for a higher benefit than our own.

Unfortunately, the solipsistic "If I can't go there, it doesn't need to be there" mentality is rampant.

 

[goodtimes]

This brings up an interesting question, I wonder how many people on both sides of the fight, have actually spent any time in a true wilderness area?

If someone hasn't experienced true wilderness, how could that person possibly understand its value?

<<raising hand>>

Been there, done that....many times.

I hope to do it many more times.

As much as I enjoy vehicle based travel (even the challenging trails like Hiway to Hell here in AZ), I really, *really*, like getting miles from the nearest motorized vehicle, where I can enjoy nature as it really should be...without the noise, trash, wildcat trails, and general destruction that seems to follow every reasonably accessable vehicle route in existance.

It would be really great if we (mankind) would act in a reasonable and respectful manner...we wouldn't *need* wilderness designations. But since we don't...well, we do.

 

[silverscout]

Unfortunately, the solipsistic "If I can't go there, it doesn't need to be there" mentality is rampant.

We do much better with out the ad hominem attcks.

 

[luk4mud]

"solipsistic"

Etymology: Latin solus alone + ipse self
Date: 1874
: a theory holding that the self can know nothing but its own modifications and that the self is the only existent thing ; also : extreme egocentrism




I had to look that one up.

 

[paulj]

As I look at the maps on McKeon's website of the new Bristlecone and White Mountains wilderness areas, it sure looks like the paved road into the main bristlecone grove goes through both area and will be closed, per the above.

I just looked the pinecone forest map, ABPF_42x50_080716.pdf It took a while to sort out the legend, but what I think it shows is:

- the ABPF is outlined in dashes, which includes the visitor center, picnic areas, even a radio station (KIBS-FM)

- the wilderness area, outlined in black. The north end of ABPF overlaps the wilderness area

- There long 'freeways' (double pairs of black lines) running up to the White Mountain Research Station and beyond. One for example reaches the Patriarch Picnic Area, another the Eva Belle Mine. On the west edge of the map you see these 'freeways' reaching the Moulas Mine and the Monoco Mine. I believe those are reentrants that purposefully exclude roads from the Wilderness designation. I believe these are often referred to as cherrystem roads.

While it not stated on the McKeon map page, it is pretty obvious that ABPF is not a Wilderness area in the common sense. In particular regulations regarding roads, wheeled travel, and permanent structures (such as the visitor center and radio tower, research center) do not apply. However, where the ABPF overlaps the designated Wilderness area, these regulations do apply. We'll have to find a separate document that spells out the ABPF regulations.

Also on the McKeon map link page there is this note:

The setback on non-maintained roads will be increased from 30 to 75 feet on each side of the center line

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

We do much better with out the ad hominem attacks.

I honestly don't consider this to be an attack, ad hominem or otherwise. As far as I can determine, what those who are against wilderness are saying really does boil down to a statement that simple. Read back over the posts here, even Lance's, and they essentially say exactly what I wrote. If they can't drive there, they don't want it there.

Except, in most cases, it's worse, because most of those arguing against wilderness are perfectly capable of walking, and could easily enjoy any wilderness area in the country if they chose to do so. So - again, as far as I can determine - the argument from those able-bodied people really boils down to, "If I don't feel like going there, it doesn't need to be there."

Not an attack; just a frank distillation of their own stances. I wasn't attempting to be disrespectful, just concise - although I certainly do consider it to be an unfortunate philosophy.