2014 Power Wagon review

[Clutch]

Diesel this, diesel that, blah, blah, blah…. Personally I am glad the Power Wagon doesn't have a diesel or it would not be on my radar of the main vehicle I want so badly. There isn't a 2007 or newer diesel engine in any vehicle worth owning. The good diesels are a thing of the past and I'm not so sure how "good" they really were.

Don't be a hater! I dunno, I had a chance to drive some diesels recently...from a Jetta TDI to Dodge and Ford 3/4 tons...wow I tell you!

Story in today's auto news…. Why Ram's Biggest, Baddest Off-Road Pickup Won't Get A Diesel Engine

Fairly lame excuse of a winch won't fit behind the bumper...and nose heavy.


The diesel F250 Ultimate Adventure truck looks like it did mighty fine offroad.
Look a winch and in the dirt! How can that be!?

 

[RoyJ]

Don't be a hater! I dunno, I had a chance to drive some diesels recently...from a Jetta TDI to Dodge and Ford 3/4 tons...wow I tell you!

No doubt the new diesels drive nice, probably better than they ever did 10 yrs ago, but the real question is have you had a chance to maintain a diesel?

I was a diehard diesel fan up till the EPA crap kicked in. Since 07 just about every manufacturer had nothing but problems in the long run.

I ask myself this, for a real expedition vehicle, would I want to deal with DPF + DEF + heavy EGR + a million other sensors, if I'm camped in the middle of Siberia or Antarctica? What if the DEF freeze, what if the DPF plugs up, what if blah blah blah... What if I were a soldier in the middle of an Iraqi hotspot, in a full EPA diesel truck, would I feel safe?

On the contrary, the modern gasoline engine, with VVT and some cases direct injection, has reached the pinnacle of both reliability and efficiency that's fastly approching diesel. With modern 6 - 8 speed transmissions, the whole torque / crawl ratios of diesels is also a moot point.

 

[Kowboy]

Diesels will work just fine off road. Just need to account for the weight when you build up the rig. Specific'ly the front axle, front suspension, and steerin'. To each is own tho. I personally ain't got no problem with gas neither. In fact, I even carry some on my junk. I use it to run my chainsaw and wash my hands.

Like I say, I respect Dodge for addin' some nice extras but hard for me to understand all the hoopla. Addin' lockers and a winch to the truck of your choice ain't really brain surgery. For the price of this bad boy, a fella could sure build up some older iron into a sweet rig.

Carry on.

 

[Clutch]

No doubt the new diesels drive nice, probably better than they ever did 10 yrs ago, but the real question is have you had a chance to maintain a diesel?

I was a diehard diesel fan up till the EPA crap kicked in. Since 07 just about every manufacturer had nothing but problems in the long run.

I ask myself this, for a real expedition vehicle, would I want to deal with DPF + DEF + heavy EGR + a million other sensors, if I'm camped in the middle of Siberia or Antarctica? What if the DEF freeze, what if the DPF plugs up, what if blah blah blah... What if I were a soldier in the middle of an Iraqi hotspot, in a full EPA diesel truck, would I feel safe?

On the contrary, the modern gasoline engine, with VVT and some cases direct injection, has reached the pinnacle of both reliability and efficiency that's fastly approching diesel. With modern 6 - 8 speed transmissions, the whole torque / crawl ratios of diesels is also a moot point.

They for certain, they have gotten more complicated...just about everything else in life has too...

Like I say, I respect Dodge for addin' some nice extras but hard for me to understand all the hoopla. Addin' lockers and a winch to the truck of your choice ain't really brain surgery. For the price of this bad boy, a fella could sure build up some older iron into a sweet rig.

Carry on.

Yerp

 

[Larry]

I know some of you are tired of hearing me sing this same song but I work as a field service engineer/national fleet manager for a class 5 through 8 truck and diesel engine manufacturer. Between our in house built diesel engines and joint ventures around the world we build 3.0L up to 13L diesel engines. We also use thousands of GM gasoline engines in specialty vehicles such as UPS delivery vans and RVs as well as 6.7L to 15L engines from Cummins. While if it wasn't for the diesel engine I probably would not have a job but I have to tell you modern diesels are not worth owning when a gas engine is available in the vehicle platform you're looking at. Diesel engine powertrain inception cost is ridicules, fuel is more expensive, durability and reliability is way down, fuel economy is way down and overall cost of ownership is sky high. And if one thinks they are going to save a bundle on fuel economy by choosing a diesel engine in a vehicle where a gas engine is available they are sadly mistaken. I find the vehicles we build with gas engines leave production to never be heard of a gain while the diesels tend to make many trips through dealers before 100,000 miles. The days of trouble free 100 to 400,000 mile diesels engines is GONE. One set of injectors or a turbo replacement instantly dissolve any fuel economy savings that a diesel would deliver over a gas engine. Gasoline guys replace $100 worth of spark plugs and wires around 100,000 miles while it is not uncommon for the diesel guys to pay $5000 to $7000 in injectors and turbos around 100,000 miles. Then if there is a catastrophic failure of a turbo that wipes out an engine you're looking at a $12,000 to $20,000 repair meanwhile a catastrophic failure of a gas engine where a replacement is necessary will run around $4000 to $6000. The argument of higher resell value of diesels is very overstated. I know many dealers that do not give any premium trades for incoming diesel trucks. Many times the trade value will actually be lower than a comparable gas truck when the mileage is over 150,000 just due to the maintenance cost and the risk of reselling a boomerang.

On the other hand, obviously if you're towing huge loads majority of the time or have some ridiculously large rig like an Earthroamer a diesel is the obvious choice in order to propel the beast but for your average Joe, diesels are a “want” thing more than a “need” thing. Those that must have a diesel are better off buying a 2006 or older diesel truck. I will also say this though, of the big three pickup manufacturers the RAM with the Cummins has the fewest issues compared to the PowerJoke and Dirtymax but that isn't really saying much. Cummins engines and aftertreatment systems have plenty of issues of their own. You all can keep your diesel wishes while I keep shaking my head every time I hear people whine about the lack of a diesel in the Wrangler or RAM. Get over it, you're not missing anything. The US government has taken the balls off diesels engines period. It gets harder and harder every year to bite my tongue every at the Overland Expo when the Jeep/RAM guys do their open forum with the Indiana Jones hat wearing overlanders in the crowd whining to them about lack of diesels in the PW and Ruby. It seems to me so many of these guys that know little about the mechanical realities of vehicles have this stigma where diesels are king because they are popular with the other Indiana Jones hat wearing guys in Australia, Africa or some far off land that is perceived to be better than the US. Of course, periodicals like Overland Journal and articles right here on the portal further pound that BS in people's heads where diesel is king. Rant off :sombrero:

 

[truck mechanic]

Well said Larry!
I bought a 97 7.3. Very happy with the truck. But had it not crossed my path when it did, I would be driving a gas job. I agree, but i wouldnt touch anything past 03. I had 6.0 in a f550. loved the truck, hated the engine, when it ran it ran great. made the 7.3 look and feel like a slug. but thats when it ran.

 

[Clutch]

Larry do mean to tell us that diesel isn't all pixie dust and rainbow unicorn farts as we are lead to believe!!??

Would love your insight in here.

 

[crawler#976]

As a PW owner, I can tell you the main reason a diesel won't work from the factory. It's the massive torque generated at low RPM. Put that to the ground on locked axles, and I'd like to be there to watch the fun. As it is right now, breaking axles is almost unheard of.

Secondly, the front axle is the weak point in the truck as it is now. I use my truck pretty hard. In 5 years and 64000 miles, it on the 4 set of ball joints. Add another 800 pounds to the front end, and see how long they last then.

Mark

Sent via gigawatt laser...

 

[toylandcruiser]

As a PW owner, I can tell you the main reason a diesel won't work from the factory. It's the massive torque generated at low RPM. Put that to the ground on locked axles, and I'd like to be there to watch the fun. As it is right now, breaking axles is almost unheard of.

Secondly, the front axle is the weak point in the truck as it is now. I use my truck pretty hard. In 5 years and 64000 miles, it on the 4 set of ball joints. Add another 800 pounds to the front end, and see how long they last then.

Mark

Sent via gigawatt laser...

If the axles were designed better, maybe they wouldn't break. I honestly don't think that's the issue.


"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
— George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on Ratification of the Constitution, Elliot, Vol. 3, June 16, 1788

 

[Clutch]

Secondly, the front axle is the weak point in the truck as it is now. I use my truck pretty hard. In 5 years and 64000 miles, it on the 4 set of ball joints.

That sounds excessive for so little miles. I could see one set for every 100K miles.

 

[Larry]

Larry do mean to tell us that diesel isn't all pixie dust and rainbow unicorn farts as we are lead to believe!!??

Would love your insight in here.

Hehe, I guess it all depends on who you talk to. My opinion is no, not anymore.

We had our first baby last summer so chasing a toddler around the house all night has put the hamper on my forum play time. I’ll have to read up on your thread.

As a PW owner, I can tell you the main reason a diesel won't work from the factory. It's the massive torque generated at low RPM. Put that to the ground on locked axles, and I'd like to be there to watch the fun. As it is right now, breaking axles is almost unheard of.

Secondly, the front axle is the weak point in the truck as it is now. I use my truck pretty hard. In 5 years and 64000 miles, it on the 4 set of ball joints. Add another 800 pounds to the front end, and see how long they last then.

Mark

Sent via gigawatt laser...

Not sure about that one as I’ve seen plenty of heavy rigs with campers powered by torque monster engines running lockers without damaging anything other than peeling a lot of rubber off tires on tight turns. Speaking of axles, did anybody notice the 2014 PW now comes with the same 11.5” rear American Axle axle as used in the Cummin’s powered RAMs as well as the diesel and 8.1L powered GM twins? 2005 to 2013 PW’s had the 10.5” rear axle which is a close relative to the respected GM Corporate 10.5” 14 bolt but with a Chrysler specific center section housing. Nothing wrong with the 10.5" and I like the idea of the larger 11.5” but man, that center section is huge! It’s got to be a rock dragger on the trail. Speaking of the 11.5" being new to the 2014's I have a buddy at Chrysler that was telling me the elocker development and validation for the 11.5" was largely to blame for the late arrival of the '14 PW.

Seems like I recall reading AAM changed the balljoints in the front of the 2010 RAMs for that reason.

 

[crawler#976]

It's the front axle that will break, I should have said that. The added torque and weight will grenade it.

The PW specific 10.5 uses the 11.5 axle shafts in it, so It was a stout setup to start with. The only thing good about the new axle is the availability of more ratios. The 4.56 is as high as you can go in the 10.5.

Sent via gigawatt laser...

 

[Clutch]

Hehe, I guess it all depends on who you talk to. My opinion is no, not anymore.

We had our first baby last summer so chasing a toddler around the house all night has put the hamper on my forum play time. I'll have to read up on your thread.

.

Congrats man!


Thanks...take your time. No hurry...we are moving to Idaho here in a couple months, going to have to wait and get settled before I dive into a project.

 

[Outback]

I think the perfect combination of Power Wagon and Diesel engine would be the new V6 diesel that Dodge is putting in there 1/2 ton. Can you imagine there 8 speed trans mated to the current low range transfer case with the 4.56 gear option? You have your ultra Over Drive with the fuel sipping Diesel Engine? That and you can add an arrow fuel tank to be able to store 50 gallons of fuel. Not bad. Some of you scoff at the cost of diesel. Today I filled up my WarWag and its less than a dollar more for Diesel than it is for Super Unleaded. If you were getting7 to 10 miles more per gallon I think that puts ahead on the fuel cost side. As far as up keep on diesel engine all you need to change are the fuel filters. Not everyone will like Diesels. Not everyone will like Gas engines. I happen to like both and each has there place. Diesels are much better off road than any gas engine.

 

[Zaggnabit]

I actually got to corner one of the Ram guys at a Sales training event last year. One of my first questions was about a diesel option on the Power Wagon. His response was surprising. Its really about weight. The CTD is really heavy, and long comparitively. That extra weight cuts into the GVWR significantly and the PW is already very heavy with the Lockers and Body armor added in. The CTD's intercooler is also up front. That would require that the Winch be moved forward, ahead of the frame. Its doable (and has been done in a test vehicle) but they dont like the handling characteristics it creates.

Also the CTD produces a ridiculous amount of torque, more than the lockers can bear reliably. Upgrading the lockers, adds even more weight, again cutting into the GVWR.


We discussed the 3.0 litre Diesel, but its also heavy, heavier than the HEMI which is not a light weight itself. The 3.0 litre was still in a consideration phase then but it was not deemed a good fit for towing, which is still a big consideration in the PW's design parameters.

The 2014 trucks took a hit on payload with a more robust frame upgrade and bigger differentials, as well as a better rear suspension setup. Thats all weight added though.

Sadly i think a diesel PW is unlikely next year as well. Unless there is a change of thinking regarding towing or a willingness to move up to the 3500 platform. Neither is likely.