2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[Victory_Overland]

Still hoping/praying for a 4cyl TDI in the new D110! I am sold on the new Defender when diesel is an option.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

For sure rust prevention is a good idea.

Oh, I'm sure they'll sell here. Not sure if they'll sell in the same volumes as the other models, but I'm sure they'll sell some...

I imagine most on the lots won't be the basic $77,000 model. They'll be the loaded up 100K models. In which case, I wonder if most would just buy the Range Rover then?

Hopefully they sell at least a few, because I want to buy a used one in a couple of years! If they are reasonably robust (which I’m hopeful they will be) I think they will be good value second-hand relative to their as-new price.

 

[DieselRanger]

This still happens to me.

"Hey man, might not wanna go down that road, you might scratch it"

Me: So?

LOL, I get the, "hey, you should probably turn around - not sure you should take that thing any further."

Me: "OK, I'll just go up ahead to look for a better place to turn around."

And then I don't turn around.

 

[nickw]

You're the one in the strange land. In the VAST majority of the United States, where a huge portion of LRs are sold, they are pavement princesses. I would imagine the same is true in most of the developed world. They are status symbols, period.

So are Jeeps bud. The sheer number of jeeps with lots of accessories, LED lights and 35"+ mud tires that never see dirt is astronomical. At least the LRs behave well on road.

I'd agree with the guy if he was talking defenders, which I think he was.

 

[DieselRanger]

But that's the rub....the government didn't mandate any turbo/hybrid tech be added to this new vehicle.

JLR has numerous N/A engines they could have used, for lower cost and less complexity sake, most likely with stop/start, but that can be programmed out.

But they chose to add the complexity. And having to use premium fuel, in a vehicle badged as a Defender?! Come on now.

The reason JLR - and all automakers - are building turbocharged engines is because of emissions and fuel economy. Turbocharged engines reduce emissions by re-burning a large proportion of the incompletely combusted exhaust gases, and allow smaller displacement engines to be used that are more fuel efficient at the same power levels as a larger engine.

Modern turbocharged engines - as well as NA engines - rely on very tightly controlled engine management regimes to optimize mixture and spark (for gas engines) in response to varying conditions - because they must meet emissions controls at all times on the road, in all weather conditions and altitudes - this is why Volkswagen and FCA got in trouble, and why MB stopped selling their excellent diesels in North America.

You can say you don't care about emissions or fuel economy all you want, but government regulations in developed nations all over the world make automakers care about it, and you get very little choice in the matter unless you want to buy old & busted cars to fix up, or trailer yours to the trailhead. If you don't like that, write your congressman.

Besides, I'd rather have forced induction in my engines. As said before, just sitting in my driveway, a NA engine is down 18% on power. When I'm going over Engineer Pass, 35% of those horses suffocate. With the proper forced induction, I don't start to lose power or efficiency until around 10,000 feet, and then the drop off is slower above that.

 

[DieselRanger]

So are Jeeps bud. The sheer number of jeeps with lots of accessories, LED lights and 35"+ mud tires that never see dirt is astronomical. At least the LRs behave well on road.

SO MANY mall-crawler jeeps. Can't swing a bearded flat-brimmed hat wearing bro-dude without hitting 10 of them around here.

If you're going to buy a mall-crawler, I'd want something different than all the conformist idiots with their ostrich-leather interiors and polished rims and their death-wobble.

 

[DieselRanger]

Not really the case anymore. Europe the diesels not only are rarely sold now but are facing bans in many major markets in non commercial applications ie passenger vehicles etc.

You can't be more wrong. No bans have yet been enacted - only threatened. Yes, diesel sales have declined but they still make up nearly 40% of all vehicles sold in Europe. In the US, diesel passenger cars represent only three (3) percent of sales.

 

[DieselRanger]

It is a different 'crowd'. When we were climbing up Engineer's Pass several years ago some lady in a ATV (what a miserable ride) yelled out "I wouldn't bring my LR4 up here!". The trail bike guy further up said "Perfect vehicle for here". And yes, no other LR's all day long while an assortment of other vehicles but mostly Jeeps.

I saw two other D5's in one day on the trails around Crested Butte. Mine was the 3rd.

You don't see many LRs on the trail because there were never that many LR's made in the first place. FCA and its predecessors have made more Wranglers than JLR has made cars in the last 30 years. So it's not surprising, really.

Saw a Range Rover and a D1 at the old trailhead to South Colony Lakes back when you could drive to the end of the road. Have seen them at the end of the road on Blanca as well.

 

[Blaise]

I imagine most on the lots won't be the basic $77,000 model. They'll be the loaded up 100K models. In which case, I wonder if most would just buy the Range Rover then?

The basic model is $49k, not $77k. And that's for the 110, the basic 90 should be around 42k.

 

[Todd n Natalie]

The basic model is $49k, not $77k. And that's for the 110, the basic 90 should be around 42k.

Sorry, my mistake. $70,000 is the cheapest most stripped out Defender 110 here in Canada. Did not add one option. Freight and PDI may be added to the sticker on the lot too.

I'm guessing our local dealer won't stock many of these. I think the majority will be closer to 100K. Which isn't far to a Range Rover. I think here anyway, the majority of people will continue to purchase Evoques, Disco's and Range Rovers. Might see the odd Defender here...

 

[Buliwyf]

So it costs as much as a brand new Rubicon, brand new Super Duty, and a brand new Ktm Exc 500, all together?????

''Utah, get me 2......... Utah! TWO!''

 

[Todd n Natalie]

So it costs as much as a brand new Rubicon, brand new Super Duty, and a brand new Ktm Exc 500, all together?????

''Utah, get me 2......... Utah! TWO!''

If you are referring to my pricing. Not so much. JL Rubicon 2 dr starts at 46K and the Superduty I spec'd as a Reg Cab long box XL 4x4. Did not add 1 option to either. No clue on the cost of the KTM. Damn Canadian pricing.... I'm sure you could maybe buy both a little cheaper at the dealer. But, not enough to equal the purchase price of a new Defender.

 

[Blaise]

A Rubicon is $43k with no options.

How are you getting a Rubicon, Super Duty, and EXC for $50k total new? Cuz I'm in!

 

[mklucas]

I'm with you on the benefits of diesel. When I was shopping around for a replacement for my to-be-bought-back Touareg, the JGC EcoDiesel was on my list as was (at the time) the RRS Td6, but the EcoDiesel was in a stop-sale and the JeepForum.com horror stories put me off. Jeep even had a social media person on the forum like a genie who would pop out of the bottle to try to get people to engage with them directly instead of post problems on the forum - I watched that forum for 2 years. There were no similar horror stories in Range Rover / Land Rover forums for the current generation RRS, or even the LR4. I even posted in a couple asking what problems they'd had or heard of and got few replies, and no real "common" problems. Not so for older models...the problems all have names. When problems get names ("The _______ issue" -- "The Three Amigos"), then that's a bad sign. And no Land Rover social media people are obviously policing posts. They do read them (this thread is a good example). The only thing that seems chronic is that the Td6 ECU is really bad at estimating when your oil needs to be changed - it generally wants you to change it well before its service interval because it incorrectly believes that your motor oil has reached its fuel-in-oil limit. This "problem," if you go by its recommended "service required in XXX miles" notification, causes nothing more than added expense rather than any kind of failure mode. Independent testing across many vehicles reveals there's virtually zero fuel entering the crankcase, which is actually unusually good for turbodiesels that rely on post-injection to help actively clean the DPF, even new ones.

There are diesels being sold, yes, but right now light-duty pickups like 2500/3500 and F250/350 with the big high-displacement V6 and V8 turbodiesels are still in their own class of emissions - they are allowed to emit more NOx and particulates than passenger cars and SUVs (heavy duty diesels are things like semi trucks and dump trucks for purposes of emissions classification). All Land Rover vehicles fall into the passenger car/SUV class, as does the Wrangler (which will be getting the 3.0L EcoDiesel soon) and the JGC. Those regulations continue to tighten. CARB literally wants to ban farm implements from using diesel - tractors and plows! ************** tractors! ******** them. The problem is, 17 other states have signed on to their emissions regulations, which are tighter than the US EPA's rating. So if you want to make a car that sells in the US, and you want it to have a diesel, it has to be CARB-compliant. And if you are a small automaker and you need to make a world car with world engines, that means a cost-benefit analysis as to building and certifying a diesel to meet the world's strictest emissions standards, just so you can sell it in 17 US states *and* the rest of the world. I'm not optimistic we will see an inline 6 turbodiesel from JLR in the US - they are selling a twin-turbo V6 diesel in the ROW (the SD6) that makes 300hp and almost 500lb-ft of torque that replaced the Td6 for MY19, but we will never see that one here.

As to your complaints regarding the "fixes" in your JGC and Cummins engines....if you're out of warranty, happiness is just a downpipe or a chip away. Plenty of those on the market, still legal in most states, and there are ECU flashes that can be removed or easily reverted when it's time to get smogged.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk

I completely agree. I too recently saw an article about CARB lobbying States and manufacturers to get on board with their regulations. Yes the 2500/3500 is there own thing, but I had spoken to the resurgence/recent presence of the baby diesels in the domestic 1/2-ton (1500) segment (those baby diesels are also appearing in the domestic mid-size trucks as well as Jeep, or so we're told). Granted JLR is a different animal with a very global presence - but still, given the Defender's published weight ratings (a great thing in my book), I'd need to see a diesel with some guts offered in the US to consider one for how I like to use my toys. That's all.

You make some great points in response to other comments offered and I think we're in agreement - the strong headwind modern diesel faces here in the US is not only ridiculous but appalling. I almost have to subscribe to some, unknown to me, conspiracy theory, because why is an engine that consumes less fuel and emits less carbonaceous particulate matter somehow worse for the environment? [it's a rhetorical question, I don't really want an answer that's just a debate, please]

This first article, re diesel v gas, features a nice photo of a Defender...

https://cambridgemask.com/blog/diesel-gas-causes-air-pollution/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-03714-9
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170717110429.htm

 

[nickw]

So it costs as much as a brand new Rubicon, brand new Super Duty, and a brand new Ktm Exc 500, all together?????

''Utah, get me 2......... Utah! TWO!''

Would help if you quoted the post you are referring too so we knew what the hell you were talking about.....but certainly the new Defender, even fully kitted out, is nowhere near what you just listed.....