2200 watts of solar on the roof?

Alloy

Well-known member
You can stop the sulphate crystals from forming by Charging them with a good smart charger once a month or use a normal charger and let it get up to 15v for about an hour, That can boost the CCA, My 800cca batteries read over 900 CCA and they are almost 3 years old next month, (y)

A high or longer charger voltage/time degrades the plates but this can be better than allowing the crystals to harden.

It would be great if we could stop the formation of sulfate crystals but sadly it can only be slowed. A small number of the sulfate crystals will start to harden after 36hrs.

Smart charger is a generic term so it is best to compare the charger specs with the battery specs. Each manufacture will have a recommend way to charge / equalize (or not) the batteries.
 

Peter_n_Margaret

Adventurer
After several early (2 to 3 years) failures of wet cell crank LA batteries in our rig I concluded that wet cells simply fall apart internally from the vibrations caused by corrugations.
Since changing the crank to AGM I have had 9 years of trouble free service. Same with the house batteries.
I will continue to use AGMs for this reason alone until I need the weight saving of Lithium.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
 

67cj5

Man On a Mission
A high or longer charger voltage/time degrades the plates but this can be better than allowing the crystals to harden.

It would be great if we could stop the formation of sulfate crystals but sadly it can only be slowed. A small number of the sulfate crystals will start to harden after 36hrs.

Smart charger is a generic term so it is best to compare the charger specs with the battery specs. Each manufacture will have a recommend way to charge / equalize (or not) the batteries.

You can stop it and remove it but you have to do it about Once every 2 or 3 months to stay on Top of It,

With my batteries I use the NOCO Smart Chargers because their Repair mode goes up to 16.5 Volts, It starts off Low at around 13.2+V and then pulses for 4 hours exactly and it reaches normally 16.5v,

When it comes to Charging Lead Acid Batteries I use my wheeled 35Amp Charger set on around 10A or 20A+ settings and I will hook up a fluke DMM and monitor the Voltage until it reaches around 14.5v but once in a while I will run the Voltage up to around 15v+, Another thing is I will Run the battery down with one of my ARB Fridges by using about 30% of it's Ah and then leaving the Fridge connected I hook up the Charger and set it to Low "10A" So the fridge is Draining it as the Charger compensates for the fridge and when the fridge shuts off the Charger does it's thing, So I am creating a Push Pull cycle within the Battery this type of use stops Crystals building up,

Once I have done this I will then Charge it using One of the Noco's to Equalize the Battery and then I will Run the Repair mode, The End Results are My 800cca Batteries Actually has up to 900cca of usable Power and my Batteries when left to settle down for 24 hours read around 13.25 to 13.35v, With the Fridge set to -12*c OR 10.4*f, This Higher Voltage allows me to run the Fridge for 16 Hours before the Battery reads 12.673v, As I said earlier my Batteries are 3 years old Next Month and they Out Perform my 800cca AGM battery in my Van, and they hold their Voltage a lot better too,

I bought 3 of Noco Chargers, I have the G3500 = 3.5A and the G15000 = 15 Amp and the G26000 = 26 Amp, But you don't need all 3 because the Repair Mode on all three puts out 16.5v @ 1.5A from the smallest to the Biggest, But one thing I have noticed is when it comes to Lead Acid Batteries A Normal Linier battery Charger works faster, Noco Smart Chargers are a lot faster at charging AGM and Lithium Batteries,

If you Look at the picture below, The Top figures are of a 720cca Battery and the Lower set of figures are of one of my 800cca Batteries after 24 hours Rest,

Hope that Helps, (y)

037.jpg
 
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Joe917

Explorer
Why Not ??

By splitting the bank you always have backup power,
Here you go. About sailboats but perfectly applicable to an expo truck:

The benefits to a single large hard wired bank are many, where the benefits to multiple on-board house banks are few to non-existent. There are however considerations for wiring and isolation that owners can also consider.

The question is not one of the physical amount of batteries on-board but rather a question of how these batteries are wired or used as a BANK and how they are charged.

For example having three individual banks on-board, HOUSE 1, HOUSE 2 and a STARTING bank, only serves to yield poorer house bank cycle life.


IS IT BETTER TO HAVE ONE OR TWO BATTERY BANKS FOR HOUSE USE?

Begin Quote = Nigel Calder

"
The popular arrangement of having two house banks alternated in use needs scrutiny before I go any further.

LIFE CYCLES: As we have seen, the life expectancy of a battery in cycling service is directly related to the depth to which it is discharged at each cycle - the greater the depth of discharge, the shorter the battery’s life.

This relationship between depth of discharge and battery life is NOT linear. As the depth of discharge increases, a battery’s life expectancy is disproportionately shortened. A given battery may cycle through 10% of its capacity 2,000 times, 50% of its capacity 300 times and 100% of its capacity around 100 times.

Let’s say, for arguments sake, that a boat has two 200-ah battery banks, alternated from day to day, with a daily load of 80 Ah. Each bank will be discharged by 40% (80 Ah of one of the two 200 Ah banks) of its capacity before being recharged. The batteries will fail after 380 cycles, which is 760 days (since each is used every other day). If the two banks had been wired in parallel, to make a single 400 Ah battery bank, this bank would have been discharged by 20% of capacity every day, with a life expectancy of 800 days, a 5% increase in life expectancy using exactly the same batteries!

But now let’s double the capacity of the batteries, so that the boat has either two 400 Ah banks, or a single 800 Ah bank, but with the same 80 Ah daily load. The two separate banks will be cycling through 20% of capacity every other day, resulting in a total life expectancy of 1,600 days. Doubling the size of the battery banks in relation to the load has produced a 210% increase in life expectancy. The single 800 Ah bank will be cycling through 10% of capacity every day, resulting in a life expectancy of 2,000 days - a 25% increase in life expectancy over the two (400 Ah) banks, and a 250% increase in life expectancy over the single 400 Ah battery bank!

There are two immediate conclusions to be drawn from these figures:

1. For a given total battery capacity, wiring the (house) batteries into a single high capacity bank, rather than having them divided into two alternating banks, will result in a longer overall life expectancy for the batteries.

2. All other things being equal, any increase in the overall capacity of a battery bank will produce a disproportionate increase in its life expectancy (through reducing the depth of discharge at each cycle)."

End Quote:


While Nigel does an excellent job with this, and keeps it simple, there is really some more detail to it.

Why one large bank is best for reasons beyond even what Nigel Calder has touched on.

#1
It is simply more efficient to charge one bank rather than two unless your using 100% free energy, and you have lots of excess time to on your hands. For a cruising boat using solar, your charging time is not really unlimited. Even then, with so called free energy, "finish charging", defined as getting back to 100% SOC, with two banks is considerably less efficient due to the longevity of the time needed, during the charge acceptance decline.and inordinate amount of time "finish charging" a lead acid banks takes. It is actually quite rare on a cruising sailboat to be able to get a house bank to a true 100% SOC in one solar day. At high states of charge the batteries become horribly inefficient at storing energy. The Coulombic efficiency can get as bad as 40% - 50% inefficient above 95% SOC and even worse once you're over 97% SOC. This means a lot of your solar energy is getting wasted pushing the batteries upward towards 100%. Charging two separate banks means your high SOC inefficiencies essentially double and require double the charging hours.

#2 A larger contiguously wired bank will not be as dramatically affected by the Peukert effect. Your batteries are rated at a 20 hour discharge rate and for a 100Ah battery this would be a 5A load. By increasing the bank size you'll actually get more usable Ah capacity out of a larger bank, with the same DC load, than you do with a smaller bank with the same DC load. Once again we are gaining usable Ah capacity, rather than losing it, when we use a single large house bank.
 

67cj5

Man On a Mission
Here you go. About sailboats but perfectly applicable to an expo truck:

The benefits to a single large hard wired bank are many, where the benefits to multiple on-board house banks are few to non-existent. There are however considerations for wiring and isolation that owners can also consider.

The question is not one of the physical amount of batteries on-board but rather a question of how these batteries are wired or used as a BANK and how they are charged.

For example having three individual banks on-board, HOUSE 1, HOUSE 2 and a STARTING bank, only serves to yield poorer house bank cycle life.


IS IT BETTER TO HAVE ONE OR TWO BATTERY BANKS FOR HOUSE USE?

Begin Quote = Nigel Calder

"
The popular arrangement of having two house banks alternated in use needs scrutiny before I go any further.

LIFE CYCLES: As we have seen, the life expectancy of a battery in cycling service is directly related to the depth to which it is discharged at each cycle - the greater the depth of discharge, the shorter the battery’s life.

This relationship between depth of discharge and battery life is NOT linear. As the depth of discharge increases, a battery’s life expectancy is disproportionately shortened. A given battery may cycle through 10% of its capacity 2,000 times, 50% of its capacity 300 times and 100% of its capacity around 100 times.

Let’s say, for arguments sake, that a boat has two 200-ah battery banks, alternated from day to day, with a daily load of 80 Ah. Each bank will be discharged by 40% (80 Ah of one of the two 200 Ah banks) of its capacity before being recharged. The batteries will fail after 380 cycles, which is 760 days (since each is used every other day). If the two banks had been wired in parallel, to make a single 400 Ah battery bank, this bank would have been discharged by 20% of capacity every day, with a life expectancy of 800 days, a 5% increase in life expectancy using exactly the same batteries!

But now let’s double the capacity of the batteries, so that the boat has either two 400 Ah banks, or a single 800 Ah bank, but with the same 80 Ah daily load. The two separate banks will be cycling through 20% of capacity every other day, resulting in a total life expectancy of 1,600 days. Doubling the size of the battery banks in relation to the load has produced a 210% increase in life expectancy. The single 800 Ah bank will be cycling through 10% of capacity every day, resulting in a life expectancy of 2,000 days - a 25% increase in life expectancy over the two (400 Ah) banks, and a 250% increase in life expectancy over the single 400 Ah battery bank!

There are two immediate conclusions to be drawn from these figures:

1. For a given total battery capacity, wiring the (house) batteries into a single high capacity bank, rather than having them divided into two alternating banks, will result in a longer overall life expectancy for the batteries.

2. All other things being equal, any increase in the overall capacity of a battery bank will produce a disproportionate increase in its life expectancy (through reducing the depth of discharge at each cycle)."

End Quote:


While Nigel does an excellent job with this, and keeps it simple, there is really some more detail to it.

Why one large bank is best for reasons beyond even what Nigel Calder has touched on.

#1
It is simply more efficient to charge one bank rather than two unless your using 100% free energy, and you have lots of excess time to on your hands. For a cruising boat using solar, your charging time is not really unlimited. Even then, with so called free energy, "finish charging", defined as getting back to 100% SOC, with two banks is considerably less efficient due to the longevity of the time needed, during the charge acceptance decline.and inordinate amount of time "finish charging" a lead acid banks takes. It is actually quite rare on a cruising sailboat to be able to get a house bank to a true 100% SOC in one solar day. At high states of charge the batteries become horribly inefficient at storing energy. The Coulombic efficiency can get as bad as 40% - 50% inefficient above 95% SOC and even worse once you're over 97% SOC. This means a lot of your solar energy is getting wasted pushing the batteries upward towards 100%. Charging two separate banks means your high SOC inefficiencies essentially double and require double the charging hours.

#2 A larger contiguously wired bank will not be as dramatically affected by the Peukert effect. Your batteries are rated at a 20 hour discharge rate and for a 100Ah battery this would be a 5A load. By increasing the bank size you'll actually get more usable Ah capacity out of a larger bank, with the same DC load, than you do with a smaller bank with the same DC load. Once again we are gaining usable Ah capacity, rather than losing it, when we use a single large house bank.
Thanks for that, It makes a lot of sense, (y)

I wonder how they did the Maths to get the Increase of Cycle numbers.
 

Alloy

Well-known member
You can stop it and remove it but you have to do it about Once every 2 or 3 months to stay on Top of It,

With my batteries I use the NOCO Smart Chargers because their Repair mode goes up to 16.5 Volts, It starts off Low at around 13.2+V and then pulses for 4 hours exactly and it reaches normally 16.5v,

When it comes to Charging Lead Acid Batteries I use my wheeled 35Amp Charger set on around 10A or 20A+ settings and I will hook up a fluke DMM and monitor the Voltage until it reaches around 14.5v but once in a while I will run the Voltage up to around 15v+, Another thing is I will Run the battery down with one of my ARB Fridges by using about 30% of it's Ah and then leaving the Fridge connected I hook up the Charger and set it to Low "10A" So the fridge is Draining it as the Charger compensates for the fridge and when the fridge shuts off the Charger does it's thing, So I am creating a Push Pull cycle within the Battery this type of use stops Crystals building up,

Once I have done this I will then Charge it using One of the Noco's to Equalize the Battery and then I will Run the Repair mode, The End Results are My 800cca Batteries Actually has up to 900cca of usable Power and my Batteries when left to settle down for 24 hours read around 13.25 to 13.35v, With the Fridge set to -12*c OR 10.4*f, This Higher Voltage allows me to run the Fridge for 16 Hours before the Battery reads 12.673v, As I said earlier my Batteries are 3 years old Next Month and they Out Perform my 800cca AGM battery in my Van, and they hold their Voltage a lot better too,

I bought 3 of Noco Chargers, I have the G3500 = 3.5A and the G15000 = 15 Amp and the G26000 = 26 Amp, But you don't need all 3 because the Repair Mode on all three puts out 16.5v @ 1.5A from the smallest to the Biggest, But one thing I have noticed is when it comes to Lead Acid Batteries A Normal Linier battery Charger works faster, Noco Smart Chargers are a lot faster at charging AGM and Lithium Batteries,

If you Look at the picture below, The Top figures are of a 720cca Battery and the Lower set of figures are of one of my 800cca Batteries after 24 hours Rest,

Hope that Helps, (y)

View attachment 583708

16.5V is really high for FLA.

What are the mfg. charging/equalization specs for your batteries?

A charger that monitors the temp of the battery(s) is preferred.
 

67cj5

Man On a Mission
16.5V is really high for FLA.

What are the mfg. charging/equalization specs for your batteries?

A charger that monitors the temp of the battery(s) is preferred.
Mine are just off the shelf Duel Purpose Sealed Lead Acid Deep Cycle Batteries,

But the thing is That 16.5v Is what Noco have setup up their Chargers to Repair 12v Lead Acid Batteries and it fires Pulses in to the Battery to Burn off the Sulphate Crystals off of the Plates,

The Noco Chargers Don't just put out 16.5v, You have to fully Charge the Battery First using the NOCO and when the Green Light comes on Solid The Voltage will Drop from around 15+v down to around 13.5v Then it will start making a Clicking Sound as it equalizes the Cells starting at around 13-13.5 Volts and it will keep doing this for hours if the battery is Bad and you will see the Voltage climb back up to around 15v, Once it Stops Clicking and the Green light is still solid you Press and Hold the MODE Button Down and then press it a few times until the Red Light On the Repair Mode comes On and then you leave it and within Seconds of FOUR hours it will shut Off and go in to the Standby Mode and the Orange Power Light will Come On and then it has finished doing it's Repair Mode,

Don't Worry about the 16.5v @ 1.5A because this is what Noco's Engineers have found works best to Bring Tired batteries back to Life,

This 16.5v Is NOT like 16.5v that a Normal charger can produce So forget about comparing the Noco's 16.5v to that of a Normal high Powered Charger running at 16.5v because a Normal Charger will Damage the Battery,

These Noco Chargers do work, But they are Slow to charge until the Crystals are burnt off of the Plates and then they will charge a fair bit quicker, Not as Fast as an AGM ot a Lithium Battery but they do Charge faster once you have done this process a few times, But the Noco's are Good which is why I bought 3 of them because each one has it's specific job,

Hope that helps,
 

Alloy

Well-known member
Mine are just off the shelf Duel Purpose Sealed Lead Acid Deep Cycle Batteries,

But the thing is That 16.5v Is what Noco have setup up their Chargers to Repair 12v Lead Acid Batteries and it fires Pulses in to the Battery to Burn off the Sulphate Crystals off of the Plates,

The Noco Chargers Don't just put out 16.5v, You have to fully Charge the Battery First using the NOCO and when the Green Light comes on Solid The Voltage will Drop from around 15+v down to around 13.5v Then it will start making a Clicking Sound as it equalizes the Cells starting at around 13-13.5 Volts and it will keep doing this for hours if the battery is Bad and you will see the Voltage climb back up to around 15v, Once it Stops Clicking and the Green light is still solid you Press and Hold the MODE Button Down and then press it a few times until the Red Light On the Repair Mode comes On and then you leave it and within Seconds of FOUR hours it will shut Off and go in to the Standby Mode and the Orange Power Light will Come On and then it has finished doing it's Repair Mode,

Don't Worry about the 16.5v @ 1.5A because this is what Noco's Engineers have found works best to Bring Tired batteries back to Life,

This 16.5v Is NOT like 16.5v that a Normal charger can produce So forget about comparing the Noco's 16.5v to that of a Normal high Powered Charger running at 16.5v because a Normal Charger will Damage the Battery,

These Noco Chargers do work, But they are Slow to charge until the Crystals are burnt off of the Plates and then they will charge a fair bit quicker, Not as Fast as an AGM ot a Lithium Battery but they do Charge faster once you have done this process a few times, But the Noco's are Good which is why I bought 3 of them because each one has it's specific job,

Hope that helps,
Why are the numbers stated in cranking amps if the battereis are deep cycle?
 

67cj5

Man On a Mission
Why are the numbers stated in cranking amps if the battereis are deep cycle?
Because mine are Duel Purpose deep Cycle Batteries,

Being 115Ah 800cca / 1000mca,

The reason for using Duel purpose Batteries is at the time I wanted batteries that I could swap out with the Starter Battery without wrecking the battery, I wanted to have a setup that could multi task and so far they have been the best batteries I have ever bought, I took them off the charger 4 days ago and they are still reading over 13.2v, that's not bad for batteries that are 3 years old next month, I wish my 80A/800cca AGM held up as good,

In that picture I posted are the figures of my 115A / 720cca battery and it is reading 741cca after 3 years and the lower set of figures are of one of my 115A / 800cca batteries that is reading 900cca after 3 years, I am impressed how these batteries are holding up, They are rated to 600cycles ' 70% discharge or 30% SoC, and have a 5 year Guarantee according to the sales Blurb, they are made to American / US Specs so they have to be pretty Good, I am now thinking of buying Another 12 of them and making them in to a 1380Ah Bank,
 
Last edited:

Alloy

Well-known member
Because mine are Duel Purpose deep Cycle Batteries,

Being 115Ah 800cca / 1000mca,

The reason for using Duel purpose Batteries is at the time I wanted batteries that I could swap out with the Starter Battery without wrecking the battery, I wanted to have a setup that could multi task and so far they have been the best batteries I have ever bought, I took them off the charger 4 days ago and they are still reading over 13.2v, that's not bad for batteries that are 3 years old next month, I wish my 80A/800cca AGM held up as good,

In that picture I posted are the figures of my 115A / 720cca battery and it is reading 741cca after 3 years and the lower set of figures are of one of my 115A / 800cca batteries that is reading 900cca after 3 years, I am impressed how these batteries are holding up, They are rated to 600cycles ' 70% discharge or 30% SoC, and have a 5 year Guarantee according to the sales Blurb, they are made to American / US Specs so they have to be pretty Good, I am now thinking of buying Another 12 of them and making them in to a 1380Ah Bank,

5 year full replacement or prorated?
 

67cj5

Man On a Mission
5 year full replacement or prorated?
heres what they say,


These are the batteries I am using,

 
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biggoolies

Adventurer
FYI. I have two air conditioners. One Rv and one economical house window unit. The most economical in power usage one can buy. It uses about 45 to 50 amps per hour in 12v when cooling. That accounts for the inefficiency of the inverter which is about the best one can buy. So if you have it on at bedtime in a hot climate all night for 8 hours you can expect up to 400 amps of power usage. But there are so many variable to getting a hard number to that. Ex. Size of cabin. How cool you want it. How insulated your walls are. Etc.
 

biggoolies

Adventurer
Thanks for that, It does seem the better way to go,

I would rather do that that run just one system because if One system develops a fault then you still have power while you fix the other system.

Well done, (y)
Yes. A true overland truck is made so you have backups. Redundancy for everything. It has saved my bacon and made life less stressful.
 

biggoolies

Adventurer
I never said anything about that kind of use.

Fulltiming with a generator means noise, exhaust fumes, maintenance, repairs, fuel costs, and having to find a place to put it, hopefully a place where it won't get stolen from.

Five years of daily fuel costs alone, are enough to push me towards solar.
Thanks for that, It makes a lot of sense, (y)

I wonder how they did the Maths to get the Increase of Cycle numbers.
yes makes a lot of sense but probably doesn’t work well if you use batteries that are not the same. They likely have to be the same types of batteries with the same AH. I use two types of batteries and have space in two spots. Thus separate banks.
 

MTVR

Well-known member
We plan to insulate as well as possible, and to build the A/C or mini-split into our loft bedroom area, so that if the unit can't keep our entire living area cool, at least we can draw an insulated curtain and keep our sleeping area cool...
 

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