6.5 or 454?

[DoMiNiC1]

Diesels are a has been, most peeps here just haven’t coped with the loss yet.

I loled. :ylsmoke:

 

[chasespeed]

Yeah, me too. I have the 6.slow in my work van, and out Rack has the 8.fun w/Alison.

Personally, I would never OWN either. The 6liter drinks a LOT of fuel for very little return, and the 8.1, well, no shortage of power, but, still thirsty.

I will stick with my Cummins powered(no where near stock), 20mpg truck, thanks... even though its"outta date"

Chase

 

[Larry]

I loled. :ylsmoke:

HA! You think I am crazy but don’t forget I work for a diesel engine manufacturer and deal with those junkers everyday with major fleet customers and have exposure to market trend forecasts for several years. Sorry…diesels are a thing of the past. If you haven’t noticed the largest fleet customers in the US have already started moving back to gas engines in GVWR ranges where gas engines are an option.

Older diesels like the 6.5L are not bad nor is the 5.9L Cummins if you don’t mind paying more for your fuel (you can buy a lot of gas for the cost of maintaining a diesel engine. A set of injectors or injection pump will cost you $3000+) but any diesel after 2007 is a bad deal for any owner. You don’t have to be crazy to buy a 2007 emissions compliant diesel truck but it would help. If you bought a 2010 emissions compliant GM or Ford diesel running DEF you are crazy!

 

[Rot Box]

Sorry…diesels are a thing of the past. If you haven't noticed the largest fleet customers in the US have already started moving back to gas engines in GVWR ranges where gas engines are an option.

Older diesels like the 6.5L are not bad nor is the 5.9L Cummins if you don't mind paying more for your fuel (you can buy a lot of gas for the cost of maintaining a diesel engine. A set of injectors or injection pump will cost you $3000+) but any diesel after 2007 is a bad deal for any owner. You don't have to be crazy to buy a 2007 emissions compliant diesel truck but it would help. If you bought a 2010 emissions compliant GM or Ford diesel running DEF you are crazy!

Could not agree more ^ I'm done with electronic diesels for all those reasons and more.

That said I could never go back to gasoline. After trial and error (several diesel trucks later..) I happily ended up with my IDI and don't plan to change that. Dirt cheap to upkeep and repair and because Ford sold over a hundred trillion of these stupid things from 83-95 finding replacement parts is effortless--and did I mention they are simple to trouble shoot and repair.. lol :bike_rider:

Oh and I blame Fords 6.0 and the later emissions requirements for making diesels un-practical for fleet use :coffeedrink:

 

[Buliwyf]

Oh and I blame Fords 6.0 and the later emissions requirements for making diesels un-practical for fleet use :coffeedrink:

I agree. It takes 250,000 miles of highway driving for a diesel to start to pull ahead in terms of pricing. And that's only if it deosn't break down a dozen times. Our regular trucks/vans look like %^&* at around 175,000 miles and we sell them to get some fresh dent free work trucks to maintain a good appearance.

And diesels break down far too often. A field tech lives in his truck. Putting him in a loaner truck with only a few of his tools makes him nearly useless in the field. I hate having to switch trucks.

And lets face it. Everything on Chevy and Dodge vehicles is falling apart at around 150,000. Seat foam destroyed, switches and dash falling apart, door hinges rusting off. Shocks, and a few joints going bad. And it's time for a second set of brakes around 150,000. More productive to scrap that truck and buy a new one.

The Ford trucks are quite expensive, and their vans are rubbish that haven't been upgraded in 30+ years.

Our Fleets are all gasoline now. Mostly 1 ton 1wd Chevy Vans, with a few 1 ton 4wd Ford, Dodge, and Chevy trucks. We only go diesel if we absolutely have to. Usually that means box trucks and large stake bodies with I6 Cummins or Cat engines. In small regular sized trucks the Gasoline engines have more than enough power, they just scream more.

It's all about $$$, the #'s for diesel trucks don't add up anymore unless you hve a very heavy specific need for them. Ex: F450, F550.

I'd avoid swapping in a Diesel at all cost when there are so many good gas crate engines and used engines out there. I love Diesels, but that's not a logical need.

 

[DoMiNiC1]

Logic and mans passion for building and owning a car seldom walk hand in hand.:elkgrin:
I agree that fleet use these days would be better left to gas until the EPA pulls there head out of their @$$. Mean while my the price of pre 2006/2003 diesels will remain inflated.:Wow1: My 2002 GMC has zero emissions equipment factory. 80k books for 20k.
In hind site gap was probably a mistake. lol But I digress; I see what you are saying but I will be a very long time until Diesel is a thing of the past... 50mpg passenger cars will be next. New diesel jeeps are coming.

 

[BurbanAZ]

thanks for all the input guys, it does sound like the 8.1 is the way to go. I love the big blocks with all the power plus the much cheaper parts and maint. the maint. costs were kinda keeping me away from the diesel. I did find a guy locally that has a 454tbi just like i have with only 500 miles on a complete rebuild that i could get for 500 so for that price i may give that a shot and do what i can to improve the mpg a little. Ill keep an eye out for the 8.1 though. Another thing i didnt really want to lose is the tbi i love the simplicity.

 

[BurbanAZ]

I don't know what the laws in Arizona are regarding engine changes, but I would see if it's legal to swap a diesel into a gas truck. I know in California, it is illegal to swap a diesel into a regulated gas truck. But, then again, California is on the forefront of motorist torture.

As far as your situation goes, would you be doing this work yourself? There is quite a bit of work involved in any swap and unless you have a garage, a low frustration threshold, and/or a friend, I'd say to stay away from a swap.

As for the engines, the 454 really is a great engine. In fact, it's hard to go wrong with any big block from GM. Additionally, if you did decide to swap in a different gas motor, you would have a lot of the wiring already intact from your original engine.

The 6.5 is a pretty good engine, but it has its issues. Personally, if I were going to swap in a 6.5, I would go with either an Optimizer 6500 or a P400. Both of which are 6.5s with upgraded castings and engine components built new by AM General that eliminate a lot of the issues with the original 6.5s. Although, keep in mind, with a diesel swap you're going to be paying for little parts that are going to add up very quickly and be very expensive unless you found a donor vehicle.

In my opinion, if it was my truck, I would look into a newer big block and a roof rack or custom bumper to hold extra gas cans. It will most likely be cheaper and quicker then the 6.5 swap.

I would be doing all the work myself, i have a pretty equipped garage and plenty of time, plus its not my dd so it would be no rush. I think im leaning away from the diesel just for price plus im not great in the electronics department. I might jut try and do what i can to modify a 7.4tbi like i have now and squeeze a little better mpg out of it.

 

[FellowTraveler]

6.5 or 454 ?

First the 4L80e has to be the updated version from 1998 and up with a trans-go reprogram kevlar/ceramic premium steels, triple disk billet converter and some billet hard parts then it will holdup to anything you can throw at it. This transmission is documented to hold up to GM's 572 big block gasser race motors. Then there are others who use em behind the Cummins and Ford diesels too. They have adapters to bolt to many different engines gas/diesel.

I run my 4L80e over the road @100 deg F with cooler fans on during local stop/go or off road trips.

6.5 diesel from May 1999 forward are NAVSTAR enhanced and can be found in 1999 Burbs then in vans and trucks up 2002. Later reinforced blocks from AM General are great too best being the P400.

Most 6.5's built after 1996 have the second bracket for dual alternators, however, some custom fab is need to complete dual install because factory parts are real rare these days.

Cost effective conversion would require a donor vehicle and lots of time.

The 6.5 td suffers from cooling issues on road vehicles and requires a large thick cored radiator, removal of plate coolers which are from the factory improperly installed with feed and exit at bottom and replace with properly installed fin/plate design top feed or side feed w/in at bottom and exit at top of cooler. B&M coolers w/fans work great.

You can go full mechanical with injection the 4L80e and t-case

 

[MADE4THIS]

i have seen 650k miles on 6.5 diesel motor, can you show me that on 454?
6.5 can give you up to 20 mpg
can you show me 454 with more than 8 mpg?

and pls lets stop this stupid saying >>>>no replacement for displacement.<<<< learn from bmw m5 505 hp from 5.5 motor.
for years and years you made crap cars with words like that, get over that now.

all the world drives diesel cars and trucks for a reason. relaible and not fuel hungry

 

[Larry]

i have seen 650k miles on 6.5 diesel motor, can you show me that on 454?
6.5 can give you up to 20 mpg
can you show me 454 with more than 8 mpg?

and pls lets stop this stupid saying >>>>no replacement for displacement.<<<< learn from bmw m5 505 hp from 5.5 motor.
for years and years you made crap cars with words like that, get over that now.

all the world drives diesel cars and trucks for a reason. relaible and not fuel hungry

Ah, yeah… I don’t know about that one. Did you ever have a 6.2/6.5L apart? They are basically the same engine architecture as a big block Chevy gas. Once you get the heads off a 6.5L you can hardly tell the difference between it or a 7.4L. Neither were designed to be half million mile engines. 250K to 300K on either is doable. 650K, I am skeptical. The later AM General 6.5L engines were definitely better but they certainly do not have a B-life of half million miles. Don’t get me wrong, I love 6.5L engines and older diesels as much as the next guy. Heck, I built a 6.5L Suburban for a friend that happens to work for AM General in Livonia, MI. It was turned out nice. He sent a marine spec 6.5L long block, Optimizer 6500 heads and some oddball prototype Bosch injection pump for it instead of the usual Stanadyne pump. It ran like a Duramax when it was done and got 20 MPG going from CO back to Detroit with a direct drive TH400 (no overdrive). The problem is most people can’t afford to build something like that especially with access to prototype parts like the Bosch pump.

You're right though, the rest of the world does have reliable fuel effiencent diesel vehicles. Well, we did too in the US up until the last 5 to 9 years or so. With your BMW comment it appears you do not understand the difference between HP and torque.

Dominic is right, we will be seeing new diesel cars entering the US market, and the Chevrolet Cruze is just one of many coming soon. Manufactures are not entering these to the US because they are more durable or reliable. They are introducing them for self serving reasons to help met the stricter CAFE standards looming a head. Some people will be so awed love struck by the MPG they won’t realize the higher inception cost, fuel cost, maintenance and the fact you must drive 80,000 miles a year just to break even. I still stand by my claim that new diesels (2007 and later) do not make sense in any vehicle where gas is an option. Open any trucking, commercial vehicle, or SAE periodical where you can see that printed over and over. You may get better MPG but the fuel and maintenance cost more and they cost a LOT more to fix when they break which quickly erases any benefit from having a diesel.

Freightliner now offers gas, International has a gas engine coming and this week Detroit Diesel changed their name to “Detroit” and dropped diesel. The reason…. industry insiders believe they have alternative fuel engine in the pipeline. Like propane and CNG on a spark ignition engine....basically a gasoline engine. Sure seems odd so many truck and commercial manufacturers are dabbling in gas again, no? Yeah, those new diesels are grrrrreat!

 

[FellowTraveler]

The 6.5

AM General did not use enhanced 6.5 engines in civilian vehicles until the early to mid 2000's they used the earlier 6.5 which had many failures even though the enhanced NAVSTAR was available from May-1999 in GM vehicles. Lots of info on web about this one.

The Bosch DB-4 mechanical injection pump is the hot setup for injection on the 6.5td.

The 6.5 with large engine oil cooler, hi-cap bypass filtration and or a centrifuge setup will give better than 500k service w/o overhaul as long as it does not overheat and gets regular PM. Use synthetic lubes and test the lube and run it longer between change out.

FYI, the rest of the civilian world outside the U.S./CAN mainland uses lots of diesel vehicles from eco-cars to trucks then on into high performance and luxury vehicles.

Less diesel on future? Doubtful, but I expect it could happen in US/CAN only because of control freaks.

In the real world of all the high mile per gallon (MPG) vehicles diesel still rules in fact GM has had diesel prototypes getting way over 100 mpg for a long time now why have they not been released to the poor souls in US/CAN? Think about other major vehicle manufacturers that have diesel prototypes getting much more MPG's than GM's 100+ MPG with diesel not gas fuel?

 

[Rot Box]

I would LOVE to get my hands on a Bosch rotary pump for the ol' IDI :drool:

My younger brother had a 95 6.5TD/NV4500 with 554,xxx miles on it before a rod bearing let loose and even then it didn't blow--it just started knocking. That said I have seen some of the 6.5's with notoriously weak blocks (1997? anyhow...) blow apart at under 70k miles. You have to get the right combination and it starts with a good bottom end and keeping the coolant temp down (no matter how impossible that seems at times) imo.

I think it would be a lot of fun to piece one together with a new AM General bottom end and build from there. However building a 6.5 vs. swapping in a running donor open a huge can of worms with the budget :coffeedrink: At that point you really have to love the 6.5 to justify the cost.

 

[BurbanAZ]

sounds like everyone has their opinion on diesel, it does seem like other countries are pushing more and more diesel and it makes sense for mpg. The only problem with my situation is that i would take out a great engine 454tbi that is simple, cheap, and plenty of power but crap mpg. Then spend a ton of money to put in a more expensive diesel engine with similar power more expensive maint. costs and more expensive fuel but better mpg. I think over the long run with the cost of the engine plus the cost of fuel it would take forever to make up that difference.

 

[REDROVER]

6.2 and 6.5 were designed to be diesel from ground up. they are not modified 350. have you seen how wide the cylinder head is in 6.5 vs 350? l

the bottom line is you need a reliable motor to take you to that special place be it 6.5 or 454. as long as its not unnecessarily large and no fuel hungry.

ppl have been crossing continents with 2.0L engine powered land rover..