postalWagon
Adventurer
Have you looked at the Boyce Equipment web site? they might be able to get you a 6.2/6.5L block with low miles and a in good shape. best of luck.
70 C-20 4x4 Suburban Father/Son project
- Thread starter 1leglance
- Start date
1leg
Explorer
My Suburban never gets better then 10mpg around town but on the hwy she get an incredible 13mpg at 55mph. TBI 350/TH400 4:11-1 gears 285/75-16s. currently learning to tune the computer myself. If you do a TBI swap do the research on the 7427 computer out of a 94-95 TBI truck. my hope is that it will help to get me 15 mpg and more horsepower. i no i'm dreaming but i plan to install a 454 anyways and then i'll be back to 10mpg.
bftank
Explorer
since this suburban build is on expedition portal, i am assuming you are planning on expedition trips with it. 12-15 mpg with your rig empty would be great, but considering aerodynamics and weight it might be frustrating to achieve. 12 mpg loaded pretty sure there is no chance of that happening with a 350. a 6.2 diesel will work, albeit incredibly slowly. if you are happy with that, that's cool. a cummins will get the mileage of a 6.2l plus the power of a built big block. do it once do it right. cry over the initial expense and enjoy the rewards without misgivings. blah blah,etc, etc.
now you are 2 cents richer.:sombrero:
now you are 2 cents richer.:sombrero:
redthies
Renaissance Redneck
Welders/generators? That's the only exception I can think of...
I hate to beat the Cummins horse to death, but it just makes sense. I respect the keep it more original idea for most classic rigs, but once the Honda mini van seats went in, that boat sailed. This is now a restoMOD! Do what makes the most sense from a power and fuel economy standpoint.
That said, as always it is your Sub Lance. Do what makes YOU happy. You are the one who is going to drive and maintain the thing. If you want a 6.2, then go for it.
bftank
Explorer
700r4 behind a 6bt being marginal is optimistic at best. best to put something else behind it. i agree with ntsqd about the trickle down effect, definitely something to be calculated in.
a 6.2 naturally aspirated would struggle on the freeway, and be fine in the back country. a turbo and head stud 6.2 would most likely work fine in this app.
a 6.2 naturally aspirated would struggle on the freeway, and be fine in the back country. a turbo and head stud 6.2 would most likely work fine in this app.
1leglance
2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
So with my wife being the office manager of a diesel engine machine shop I do have some options...
BUT consideration #1 is that I have to have an AUTO trans...I sold my mega cool Aussie Toyota diesel Troopie cuz the manual trans killed my fake leg.
Consideration #2 is that I DON'T want to lift my rig more than 2-3"...no 4-6" lift...too much hassle getting in & out as an amputee.
So if I was to consider a Cummins swap then help me figure out what engine and trans combo I would be looking at.
I have the 700r4 so right I am looking at the 6.2 with the aftermarket turbo I already have....from hearing from people who have this setup I know I would be happy with the mileage but might be facing cracking issues down the road even if I start with a good motor now.
I totally understand the cry once concept so talking it out on a forum is a good way to work out bugs before the fact.
I like the way Nick-Nobin has his 5.9 Cummins but I don't like the 6" lift...plus he is running a stick.
I have always heard the 12v Cummins are great for veggie oil from back in the days when we had my son's 83 Benz on oil.
I would even consider a International 7.3 but I know they have some issues if the right coolant mix isn't used or something....scavaging?
And lastly we have my wife's thought.....Leave the drivetrain the heck alone and first build out the interior, paint and all that...enjoy the snot out of it and wait till something breaks in the engine/trans to worry about a swap
Yeah I love my "handbrake"
BUT consideration #1 is that I have to have an AUTO trans...I sold my mega cool Aussie Toyota diesel Troopie cuz the manual trans killed my fake leg.
Consideration #2 is that I DON'T want to lift my rig more than 2-3"...no 4-6" lift...too much hassle getting in & out as an amputee.
So if I was to consider a Cummins swap then help me figure out what engine and trans combo I would be looking at.
I have the 700r4 so right I am looking at the 6.2 with the aftermarket turbo I already have....from hearing from people who have this setup I know I would be happy with the mileage but might be facing cracking issues down the road even if I start with a good motor now.
I totally understand the cry once concept so talking it out on a forum is a good way to work out bugs before the fact.
I like the way Nick-Nobin has his 5.9 Cummins but I don't like the 6" lift...plus he is running a stick.
I have always heard the 12v Cummins are great for veggie oil from back in the days when we had my son's 83 Benz on oil.
I would even consider a International 7.3 but I know they have some issues if the right coolant mix isn't used or something....scavaging?
And lastly we have my wife's thought.....Leave the drivetrain the heck alone and first build out the interior, paint and all that...enjoy the snot out of it and wait till something breaks in the engine/trans to worry about a swap
Yeah I love my "handbrake"
ExpoMike
Well-known member
I drove my M1010, 6.2 NA, turbo 400, 4.56 gears on 35" tires from San Diego up to the local mountains. Rig weighed in at 6500 lbs withe aerodynamics of a brick (even more than a 'burb). I was pulling up the grades on the freeway, cruising at 55-60 mph and honestly, it wasn't as bad as I thought it might be. Yes a turbo would have greatly helped but I still managed to pass a few cars and trucks on these grades. The biggest thing that was lacking was an overdrive. I looked at a lot of options and for strength, I was going to put a Gear Vendor overdrive in. Ideally I would put in a 4L80E but the total cost was up there, even more than a new GV unit.
I think the 6.2/6.5 series is a good way to go for a relatively straight drop in for a SBC/BBC engine swap. I think for a gas setup, to get any decent mileage, an LSx engine is likely the best bet. Good power with good mileage but not cheap.
Will be interesting how this pans out for Lance. Kind of hoping for the diesel swap.
I think the 6.2/6.5 series is a good way to go for a relatively straight drop in for a SBC/BBC engine swap. I think for a gas setup, to get any decent mileage, an LSx engine is likely the best bet. Good power with good mileage but not cheap.
Will be interesting how this pans out for Lance. Kind of hoping for the diesel swap.
Rot Box
Explorer
The IH 6.9 and 7.3 IDI motors are very much the same. They are a work horse, simple as an anvil and just as strong lol. 350k miles are nothing for an IDI if its cared for. 7.3's do suffer from block worm or cavitation as some call it. Basically the cylinder walls erode and because the cylinder walls are so thin they will eventually leak coolant into the cylinder causing major engine damage. As far as how often it happens its no different than the killer dowel pin or cracked 53 blocks in the Cummins--some do it some don't... There are additives to help control it, but depending on how long they are left untreated its hard to say if its too late or not.
6.9's on the other hand don't suffer from this nearly as much--in fact its extremely rare to hear of it. The only real shortcoming of the 6.9 are the smallish 7/16" head bolts (7.3's used 1/2" bolts) when combined with forced induction. It is common for people to upgrade to ARP studs and eliminate the stretching and spitting head gaskets. If boost is kept under 10 psi it rarely becomes a problem with stock bolts.
They do not suffer from broken cranks, cracked blocks or lack of cooling the way the 6.2/6.5's do and turbocharged they provide good power--not twin turbo chipped Cummins/Duramax power--but plenty for what we do. Ford sold so many of them in the F & E- series they are EVERYWHERE and cheap. If you want more info on them hit me up I'd be happy to help.
Andrew
1leglance
2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
Andrew I figure it is good to post info in the thread vs pm so others can learn and chime in....if that is cool with you then hear goes...if not then pm your response
you got me interested...
I like the sound of the 6.9 vs the 7.3 just for the lack of cavatation issues if nothing else.
A quick look at craigslist shows me a complete runner for $600.
So the next question is what trans would I put behind it for an auto?
I see it is a V8 so should fit as it can't be much bigger than the 6.2...I would bet my aftermarket turbo setup would work if I can't find something else for it.
Just so you know I am all about driving 60mph on the highway, getting great mpg and being very reliable for remote travel.
So tell me your thoughts
you got me interested...
I like the sound of the 6.9 vs the 7.3 just for the lack of cavatation issues if nothing else.
A quick look at craigslist shows me a complete runner for $600.
So the next question is what trans would I put behind it for an auto?
I see it is a V8 so should fit as it can't be much bigger than the 6.2...I would bet my aftermarket turbo setup would work if I can't find something else for it.
Just so you know I am all about driving 60mph on the highway, getting great mpg and being very reliable for remote travel.
So tell me your thoughts
ColoradoBill
Adventurer
Lance my friend,
I think I will chime in with my opinion if you don't mind. If power in not a big issue (I don't think it is with you). Stay with the 350, add the OD trans, and add fuel injection at a later date. I bet you will be happy with the mileage increase and the little extra off-road ability from a slighter lower 1st gear. In the end I think you will have a more durable vehicle. The more anyone modifies a vehicle the more chances of having a failure on the trail from a missed bolt or loose wire connection or a who-knows-what. I know this from experience. I am doing my best to avoid putting a Cummins or Hemi in the Ramcharger. But I really would like the extra power and mileage not to mention the cool factor.
Anyway if it were mine I would put the OD with the 205 in it, add GM throttle body injection. Also there are plenty of larger fuel tank options so the range issue can be fixed. Spend the cash on the interior and suspension. Besides if the price gap between diesel and unleaded keeps increasing you may never see any long term cost benefits.
Hope all is well!!!
I think I will chime in with my opinion if you don't mind. If power in not a big issue (I don't think it is with you). Stay with the 350, add the OD trans, and add fuel injection at a later date. I bet you will be happy with the mileage increase and the little extra off-road ability from a slighter lower 1st gear. In the end I think you will have a more durable vehicle. The more anyone modifies a vehicle the more chances of having a failure on the trail from a missed bolt or loose wire connection or a who-knows-what. I know this from experience. I am doing my best to avoid putting a Cummins or Hemi in the Ramcharger. But I really would like the extra power and mileage not to mention the cool factor.
Anyway if it were mine I would put the OD with the 205 in it, add GM throttle body injection. Also there are plenty of larger fuel tank options so the range issue can be fixed. Spend the cash on the interior and suspension. Besides if the price gap between diesel and unleaded keeps increasing you may never see any long term cost benefits.
Hope all is well!!!
shortbus4x4
Expedition Leader
As much as like diesels and modifying stuff I have to agree with ColoradoBill. Add an overdrive trans and FI to what you got now. You could do this in little stages and be out doing more research for your awesome trip reports.
Rot Box
Explorer
I'd be happy to give my input. I've owned several diesel trucks through the years (6.5TD, IDI's and 12/24valve Cummins), and so far I've been extremely happy with my IH and given my budget and needs I really wouldn't' trade it for much else. In my opinion the IDI's are the best diesel in terms of reliability/simplicity next to the 12valve Cummins (as far as diesel engines offered in light duty American made pickups go..).
Here are a few pros:
-There are very few things that will leave you dead in the water with this engine as they run off of one wire, everything is mechanical and all the internals are very stout.
-Injectors and injector pumps cost less (MUCH-MUCH-MUCH less in some cases :Wow1 than the other makes.
-Ford outsold Dodge and GM combined these years so parts are literally everywhere.
-Big cooling system. Unlike the 6.2/6.5 GM diesels these don't have any overheating issues for the most part.
-Great cold weather starting as long as the glow plug system is cared for and maintained... Oh wait you live in AZ scratch that LOL.
-Power is good when turbocharged. Good as in a lot more than a 6.2 and a lot less than a "modern" diesel. Somewhere in the 160-210 RWHP and 350-400FT/LBS is a safe bet. Most of the early turbo kits shared the same turbocharger between the 6.2 and 6.9's so there is a good chance yours would work on one with some custom plumbing.
-Because of the design of the injection system these engines will support a wide range of alternative fuels including WMO waste motor oil if you're into that sort of thing.
-Very easy to work on and service.
-Excellent forum dedicated to these engines: http://www.oilburners.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=34
Cons:
-Fuel system is somewhat difficult to purge as there is no primer. Some resort to electric fuel pumps to solve this issue I however prefer the mechanical pump and just carry enough extra fuel to top off the fuel filter and that works great--kind of a pain though.
-Fuel economy is good imo, but not as good as a healthy 6.2 or 12v Cummins. My crew cab had gotten as high as 20mpg unloaded, but 16-18 mpg is a safer bet for everyday driving/exploring. My all-time worst was 11mpg pulling a really heavy load fighting a Wyoming headwind lol.
-Return line caps on the injectors are poorly designed and known to leak over a few years time. It is very easy and cheap to fix though.
-Size. They are quite a bit larger than a 6.2 and weigh in at over 900lbs. That said I know of several GM's running this motor so they do fit if you're willing to spend the time. I can take measure the dimensions if you'd like--I have a new 6.9 sitting on a stand waiting to go in my 91 if the 7.3 ever dies :bike_rider:
-I've heard stories of poor valve guides on the 7.3's, but the consensus usually points towards neglect and excessive heat.
-Glow system on 6.9's. The controller is poorly designed and when it fails it holds the GP's on causing them to burn out. A solid state system from a 7.3 or momentary pushbutton is a good upgrade.
As for automatic transmissions you'd be limited to the C6 which is very stout but being a 3 speed it lacks overdrive and the A40D 4 speed which can be built strong but it is also computer controlled and known to be finicky in stock form. If it were me I'd run a larger tire or taller (numerically lower) differential gear to make up for the lack of overdrive and run the C6. Hope this helps,
Andrew
Here are a few pros:
-There are very few things that will leave you dead in the water with this engine as they run off of one wire, everything is mechanical and all the internals are very stout.
-Injectors and injector pumps cost less (MUCH-MUCH-MUCH less in some cases :Wow1
than the other makes.-Ford outsold Dodge and GM combined these years so parts are literally everywhere.
-Big cooling system. Unlike the 6.2/6.5 GM diesels these don't have any overheating issues for the most part.
-Great cold weather starting as long as the glow plug system is cared for and maintained... Oh wait you live in AZ scratch that LOL.
-Power is good when turbocharged. Good as in a lot more than a 6.2 and a lot less than a "modern" diesel. Somewhere in the 160-210 RWHP and 350-400FT/LBS is a safe bet. Most of the early turbo kits shared the same turbocharger between the 6.2 and 6.9's so there is a good chance yours would work on one with some custom plumbing.
-Because of the design of the injection system these engines will support a wide range of alternative fuels including WMO waste motor oil if you're into that sort of thing.
-Very easy to work on and service.
-Excellent forum dedicated to these engines: http://www.oilburners.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=34
Cons:
-Fuel system is somewhat difficult to purge as there is no primer. Some resort to electric fuel pumps to solve this issue I however prefer the mechanical pump and just carry enough extra fuel to top off the fuel filter and that works great--kind of a pain though.
-Fuel economy is good imo, but not as good as a healthy 6.2 or 12v Cummins. My crew cab had gotten as high as 20mpg unloaded, but 16-18 mpg is a safer bet for everyday driving/exploring. My all-time worst was 11mpg pulling a really heavy load fighting a Wyoming headwind lol.
-Return line caps on the injectors are poorly designed and known to leak over a few years time. It is very easy and cheap to fix though.
-Size. They are quite a bit larger than a 6.2 and weigh in at over 900lbs. That said I know of several GM's running this motor so they do fit if you're willing to spend the time. I can take measure the dimensions if you'd like--I have a new 6.9 sitting on a stand waiting to go in my 91 if the 7.3 ever dies :bike_rider:
-I've heard stories of poor valve guides on the 7.3's, but the consensus usually points towards neglect and excessive heat.
-Glow system on 6.9's. The controller is poorly designed and when it fails it holds the GP's on causing them to burn out. A solid state system from a 7.3 or momentary pushbutton is a good upgrade.
As for automatic transmissions you'd be limited to the C6 which is very stout but being a 3 speed it lacks overdrive and the A40D 4 speed which can be built strong but it is also computer controlled and known to be finicky in stock form. If it were me I'd run a larger tire or taller (numerically lower) differential gear to make up for the lack of overdrive and run the C6. Hope this helps,
Andrew
1leglance
2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
Good to hear from you Bill....your thoughts are always welcome.
My wife was saying pretty much the same thing...except in her case it was something like this:
Veronica "Is there anything wrong with your engine now?"
Me "No, but I only get 10mpg so not much range"
Veronica "Don't you have a big gas tank in the back yard to put in it?"
Me " Yeah, 40gal so that would give me 400 mile range"
Veronica "Um...when do we go more than 400 miles between gas stations"
Me "Um, well, you see a diesel would get better mileage also"
Veronica " Babe I work around diesel engines, they are not cheap to build or fix, this one sounds good to me" (we were driving the burb at the time)
Me "Well yeah, but diesels are more reliable"
Veronica "But you haven't had any troubles with this engine?"
Me "Um, well, yeah.........."
Veronica " What about painting this white trash looking thing and doing something about the inside first?"
Me ............................ "Um hm....."
So my wonderful wife barely is willing to ride in my faded out, no interior rig as it is now...maybe if it was pretty blue and all done inside she would understand my desire to do this engine thing
Now all that said, she is a great wife and really doesn't care if I do a full frame off resto...except the more it is down the more fun she will have bugging me.
You see I have this vehicle A.D.D. thing and she has challenged me to keep this rig at least 3yrs...not counting downtime!
My wife was saying pretty much the same thing...except in her case it was something like this:
Veronica "Is there anything wrong with your engine now?"
Me "No, but I only get 10mpg so not much range"
Veronica "Don't you have a big gas tank in the back yard to put in it?"
Me " Yeah, 40gal so that would give me 400 mile range"
Veronica "Um...when do we go more than 400 miles between gas stations"
Me "Um, well, you see a diesel would get better mileage also"
Veronica " Babe I work around diesel engines, they are not cheap to build or fix, this one sounds good to me" (we were driving the burb at the time)
Me "Well yeah, but diesels are more reliable"
Veronica "But you haven't had any troubles with this engine?"
Me "Um, well, yeah.........."
Veronica " What about painting this white trash looking thing and doing something about the inside first?"
Me ............................ "Um hm....."
So my wonderful wife barely is willing to ride in my faded out, no interior rig as it is now...maybe if it was pretty blue and all done inside she would understand my desire to do this engine thing
Now all that said, she is a great wife and really doesn't care if I do a full frame off resto...except the more it is down the more fun she will have bugging me.
You see I have this vehicle A.D.D. thing and she has challenged me to keep this rig at least 3yrs...not counting downtime!
NOIBN
Observer
Put the gas tank in, do up the interior, make the outside pretty, then worry about the ideal motor for this thing. It runs well now. It is *generally* reliable. It is already in there and hooked up to everything--no funky fab required to just drive it. Spend the next six months to a year updating the rest of the truck and then decide if you want to re-do the drivetrain. I'd say keep the diesel stuff just in case.