Advice Needed:: Tacoma owner considering a ZR2

[Clutch]

I don't think there's anything special about being able to hose out an interior. The reason HMMWV are that way is their intended use dictates being open to the elements. But firing positions not being crucial to my use having cloth seats, air conditioning and good door seals is just as valid measure of utility. I completely agree, I prefer simple utilitarian interiors. It does irritate me having over stylized interiors that just take up space and don't provide really useful storage, places for switches and radios. In the final analysis, though, I'd just take an interior that's easy to vacuum over being wash-down rated.

I am half joking when I say I want it hose-able...it is coming home after weekend like this past one of running down dusty FS roads with the windows down and having to clean it...I think “man, wish I could I just hose it out...”

I go and sit in all these new trucks, look at all the nooks and crannies (and wow! that is a lot of buttons I will never use!)....just looks like a real ********** to clean....yeah you can take a compressor and blow it all out, but still! I just imagine all the grit and grime it will collect under my thumb. And to show I am not that much of a luddite. Maybe have all the controls and gauges on a simple flat touch screen...be like a glass top range...super easy to clean, may not be hose-able...but one or two quick wipes and it is done.

It doesn't have to old and curmudgeonie ether....that new VW I.D. Buzz....clean and simple.

Some of the new vehicles interiors look like they need to be in an airplane.

It will run me somewhere between $4-5K which is a drop in the bucket for the extra 7-8+ mpg per gallon (240+ miles more per tank) over the life of the truck and most importantly it removes the engine killing EPA hardware thereby easing the strain on the motor and possibly doubling the life span of the engine.

My diesel truck is not for camping, its for pulling heavy loads, at one point I considered building it to do both, but with the addition of the PW that's no longer necessary. Just because you don't need that kind of power for your lifestyle and needs doesn't mean some of us don't. We have a farm and a ranch and big boats, a powerful diesel is necessary to lug things around out here, if I lived in the city and commuted to a cubicle five days a week and then out of town on the weekends a Tacoma would suffice. BTW, who wouldn't take more power lol? I have pulled loads pushing 20,000 lbs with that truck on 37's, with our farm trucks we've touched 25,000 lbs and they sit on 35's.

I can't speak for the others, but a lead foot is not my issue. I live in Texas, we have hot humid air, I am on the coast and from November to June the wind blows in excess of 20-25mph nearly every single day. To top it all off we have speed limits of 75-85 mph on most of our highways and as you know when you push north of 65mph in any vehicle your fuel efficiency plummets. Sure, it's not necessary to always do those speeds, but a lot of the time if you don't you will get run over so you go with the flow. I know a lot of people with Tacomas and 4Runners and none of them get 18mpg, most certainly not when rigged out and sitting on larger than factory tires. If you are then I'd hang on to that anomaly.

Thanks. I was referring to how much in total including the price of the truck. Not exactly cheap to get those numbers. Sounds like you're comparing a $60-70K truck to an old roached out Tacoma??? Sure it will beat an old tired Tacoma...and for that price it better!

Oh yeah we used to own an excavating business, I know all about having to tow heavy. But I don't think even our Mack R series Tri-Axle Dump put out those kind of numbers...worked just fine. Seems like with the new 3/4-1 ton trucks it is a torque pissing match among the manufactures. Like the old horsepower wars of the 60's.

Here in Idaho our 2-Lane Highways speed limit is 65...interstate is 80. But I try to avoid the interstate as it is mind numbingly boring. Most of the roads I use I drive 50-55. In the back country dirt roads, like this past weekend most of it was 15-20 mph. Who wouldn't want more power? Hell, I don't even use all of the Tacoma's...more than enough. Those guys with 1000 ft lbs of torque pulling those massive 5th wheel camper up the highway couldn't fit where I can go...I am not much one for RV parks...heck, I had to bust out the chainsaw to get in my teenie tiny Tacoma into the camp spot I wanted to get to. If you’re into freeway flying and RV parks I guess you need 1000 ft lbs to do so, nothing wrong with that, just not my thing.

...it is like that new F650 Earthroamer, all I can think about is all the places I couldn't take it. Those are more for show than anything.

I keep on looking at Alaskans, that would mean I would have to get a 1 Ton to haul it...but I dunno, I don't think I can get it to fit to where I like to go...well without ripping the ******** out of it. After seeing a guy on Tacoma World flip his Vagabond Drifter on its side...and not tearing it up too bad. Maybe that is the route I need to stay with. Looks like you can go beat the living crap out of it, don't think an Alaskan would fair as well.

https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/wedge-campers-assorted-oddities.538935/page-30

 

[Dalko43]

The diesel is not all about fuel efficiency. It's awesome when crawling at low RPMs up steep ledges without momentum. This is why people spend big bucks on the Cummins diesel repower. It's what the off-road crowd have been asking for in the US market for years.

The diesel's efficiency and it's low-RPM torque are somewhat related to each other. Diesel engines don't have to rev as high as a comparable gasoline in order to deliver a certain amount of horsepower.

But in general, I agree with you. A lot of people try to analyze the diesel's worth purely from a financial perspective (fuel savings). I really don't think most diesel owners buy their vehicles purely in the hopes that they're going to save money. For many, the performance benefits (low-end torque, tuning potential, longer range) are equally important, if not more so. It's no different from someone who opts for the GT 350 with 5.2l v8 instead of the regular GT with 5.0l Coyote v8. Some people want more performance out of their vehicles; there is a higher upfront cost for such performance.

The 2.8l Cummins crate engine is answering a demand that has existed in the 4x4 community for quite some time now. It certainly is a compelling engine swap choice for an old Jeep or Toyota with a tired and outdated gasoline engine.

 

[Dalko43]

Oh yeah we used to own an excavating business, I know all about having to towing heavy. But I don't think even our Mack R series Tri-Axle Dump put out those kind of numbers...worked just fine. Seems like with the new 3/4-1 ton trucks it is a torque pissing match among the manufactures. Like the old horsepower wars of the 60's.

The big OEM's are in a bit of a torque war, which I agree is somewhat petty and foolish. I would much rather they focus on refining the existing engines' reliability and longevity (not that they haven't made some progress in that regard).

With that said, no one is forcing you to use all of that torque. Your pedal foot still has some discretion. And it is very impressive that these engines can produce such high HP and Torque figures and still be emissions compliant. The 6.7l Cummins can still eek out 22-23mpg highway, if driven moderately. The high torque allows for taller gearing, which in turns allows for better efficiency.

 

[Clutch]

The big OEM's are in a bit of a torque war, which I agree is somewhat petty and foolish. I would much rather they focus on refining the existing engines' reliability and longevity (not that they haven't made some progress in that regard).

With that said, no one is forcing you to use all of that torque. Your pedal foot still has some discretion. And it is very impressive that these engines can produce such high HP and Torque figures and still be emissions compliant. The 6.7l Cummins can still eek out 22-23mpg highway, if driven moderately. The high torque allows for taller gearing, which in turns allows for better efficiency.

It is petty and foolish, if you go look at heavy earth moving equipment....there is no need for all that torque in a 1 Ton truck. Can all be accomplished with gearing. All it is...is marketing because we all know image sells here in 'Murica. Bigger must be better, right!? More about bragging rights than anything.

Even go look at the F650-750 trucks. Those have a maximum torque rating of 725 ft/lbs. With the diesel option. Not sure why the 3/4-1 Tons need an extra 225 ft/lbs over the much heavier F650-750's other than marketing. We used to have a mid 80's Chevy C70 gas dump...now my memory is a bit foggy, IIRC that truck had a 366 Big Block, which is around 345 ft/lbs. It also had 10 speeds (5 Speed trans with a 2 speed rear end) which made for hauling heavy loads a breeze. Just kinda kept your feet and right hand busy. (double clutching, pulling levers and buttons)

The 2.8l Cummins crate engine is answering a demand that has existed in the 4x4 community for quite some time now. It certainly is a compelling engine swap choice for an old Jeep or Toyota with a tired and outdated gasoline engine.

It is tempting, I have considered it, since I really don't like anything that is currently on the market when it comes down to it. Unfortunately it will never pay for itself. You're looking at about $15K when everything is said and done. I can rebuild a gas engine several times over for that...probably be dead before I got my money back. $15K for really not all that much gains, reality it will it get 25 mpg...sure the torque would be leaps and bounds better, but I don't even use what I have now to its' full potential. This past weekend barely got it out of 3rd gear on the FS roads, and the somewhat tougher spur trails...low range is more than enough. The 3.4 in low is a beasty little engine...don't really need any more than that.

 

[Dalko43]

It is tempting, I have considered it, since I really don't like anything that is currently on the market when it comes down to it. Unfortunately it will never pay for itself. You're looking at about $15K when everything is said and done. I can rebuild a gas engine several times over for that...probably be dead before I got my money back. $15K for really not all that much gains, reality it will it get 25 mpg...sure the torque would be leaps and bounds better, but I don't even use what I have now to its' full potential. This past weekend barely got it out of 3rd gear on the FS roads, and the somewhat tougher spur trails...low range is more than enough. The 3.4 in low is a beasty little engine...don't really need any more than that.

$15k? Perhaps if the job was done by a shop. DIY, I think your overall cost would be a bit lower. The whole setup can be had $9k, sometimes less depending on available rates, and that's everything you need for the swap, minus some brackets/mounts and exhaust fittings. Honestly, that cost isn't too different from what you'd pay for GM aftermarket options or even professionally rebuilt engines coming from Japan, especially when you factor in the additional accessories you'll have to buy to make those engines work.

Absolute cost of such a swap is not the right figure to focus on. There will be a basic cost to properly rebuild the OEM powertrain which an owner will have to endure at some point. The true cost of 2.8l Cummins swap (or comparable swap) will be the difference between that engine option and the OEM rebuild.

As for paying for itself, I really don't think that factors into anyone's thought process when it comes to rebuilding and maintaining these old 4x4's. If cost was the primary and only concern, a person would find a junkyard engine to swap in or would ditch the old platform all together and find a newer vehicle that requires less maintenance and work. People don't swap in GM v8's into their Jeeps or do 4.7l v8 swaps into their LC 80's because they're expecting to save money. They do those swaps because they want better performance out of their aging vehicle....the same mentality applies for something like a 2.8l Cummins swap.

 

[Clutch]

$15k? Perhaps if the job was done by a shop. DIY, I think your overall cost would be a bit lower. The whole setup can be had $9k, sometimes less depending on available rates, and that's everything you need for the swap, minus some brackets/mounts and exhaust fittings. Honestly, that cost isn't too different from what you'd pay for GM aftermarket options or even professionally rebuilt engines coming from Japan, especially when you factor in the additional accessories you'll have to buy to make those engines work.

Absolute cost of such a swap is not the right figure to focus on. There will be a basic cost to properly rebuild the OEM powertrain which an owner will have to endure at some point. The true cost of 2.8l Cummins swap (or comparable swap) will be the difference between that engine option and the OEM rebuild.

As for paying for itself, I really don't think that factors into anyone's thought process when it comes to rebuilding and maintaining these old 4x4's. If cost was the primary and only concern, a person would find a junkyard engine to swap in or would ditch the old platform all together and find a newer vehicle that requires less maintenance and work. People don't swap in GM v8's into their Jeeps or do 4.7l v8 swaps into their LC 80's because they're expecting to save money. They do those swaps because they want better performance out of their aging vehicle....the same mentality applies for something like a 2.8l Cummins swap.

Yeah I was thinking for the Joe Average guy who doesn't have the know-how to do a swap themselves. So for the handy guy...a say a solid $10K...gotta pay for shipping and various BS that popups with such swaps. Edit: Might want to tack on and extra $2-3K on that...probably should do a HD clutch and beef up the trans while you're in there to handle the extra torque...so I may not be that far off from my initial $15K guesstimate. Lots of little ******** that you don't think about at first ads up real quick. Man, that transfer-case has some miles on it...prolly should rebuild that, and new exhaust too...

Where I can get a slightly used low mile JDM engine for $1500. I would tack another $1000 on that for various problems that will arise. Since it is all apart might as well do a new flywheel and clutch,...maybe I damage a $500 power steering pump hose while pulling the old engine out that sort of thing. Still way below a swap cost. The diesel is cool and all, but I am not seeing a night and day difference to make make it worth it. At least to me. Seems like a lot of money to spend to save a little on fuel, and have more torque than I'll ever need or use.


I used to be into muscle cars, know all too well of wanting to getting more performance... did a couple engines in a '71 Chevelle, we put 3 engines in the '76 F250...but after getting my license suspended for 6 months because of street racing in said Chevelle...yeah that curbed that "want" to go faster and having the biggest and the bestest.

Much older now, stock is more than fine. I actually like driving slow and enjoying the view.

 

[Tex68w]

And that's the beauty in having a myriad of options on the open market and the freedom to choose which product is right for you.

 

[Clutch]

And that's the beauty in having a myriad of options on the open market and the freedom to choose which product is right for you.

Of course! That surely doesn't keep us knuckle-heads from arguing over it. IIRC someone...not naming any names, but someone has a thread about eating crow or sumtin....

 

[Tex68w]

Of course! That surely doesn't keep us knuckle-heads from arguing over it. IIRC someone...not naming any names, but someone has a thread about eating crow or sumtin....

Haha yea, you got me there. I do like the witty banter and respectful conversation, after all we are all enthusiasts interested in the same type of vehicle regardless of how different they might be. That's certainly, for the most part, what separates this forum from the majority of the others, there's a mature level of respect shown here amongst the users.

 

[Clutch]

Haha yea, you got me there. I do like the witty banter and respectful conversation, after all we are all enthusiasts interested in the same type of vehicle regardless of how different they might be. That's certainly, for the most part, what separates this forum from the majority of the others, there's a mature level of respect shown here amongst the users.

Yeah...it is mostly just a bunch of harmless ribbin' on here. (some of the other forums are absolute ******** show) Not even sure I would even call it arguing...maybe a lively discussion about the merits of this vs. that. We all used to hang out in garages for hours on end, BSing and giving each other ********...now it has moved to the internet. Hell, used to have to wait until the end of the work week...to have those garage BS sessions...now it is 24/7.

 

[Dalko43]

I keep on looking at Alaskans, that would mean I would have to get a 1 Ton to haul it...but I dunno, I don't think I can get it to fit to where I like to go...well without ripping the ******** out of it. After seeing a guy on Tacoma World flip his Vagabond Drifter on its side...and not tearing it up too bad. Maybe that is the route I need to stay with. Looks like you can go beat the living crap out of it, don't think an Alaskan would fair as well.

https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/wedge-campers-assorted-oddities.538935/page-30

How the heck did that happen?

Camper may be okay but that truck is toast, financially-speaking.

Yeah I was thinking for the Joe Average guy who doesn't have the know-how to do a swap themselves. So for the handy guy...a say a solid $10K...gotta pay for shipping and various BS that popups with such swaps. Edit: Might want to tack on and extra $2-3K on that...probably should do a HD clutch and beef up the trans while you're in there to handle the extra torque...so I may not be that far off from my initial $15K guesstimate. Lots of little ******** that you don't think about at first ads up real quick. Man, that transfer-case has some miles on it...prolly should rebuild that, and new exhaust too...

The torque delivered by the 2.8l isn't all that different from what the OEM powerplants offered, it just comes in at a lower RPM. So if the trans, transfer case and exhaust need to be rebuilt, those costs would apply to any engine swap/rebuild project.

Where I can get a slightly used low mile JDM engine for $1500. I would tack another $1000 on that for various problems that will arise. Since it is all apart might as well do a new flywheel and clutch,...maybe I damage a $500 power steering pump hose while pulling the old engine out that sort of thing. Still way below a swap cost. The diesel is cool and all, but I am not seeing a night and day difference to make make it worth it. At least to me. Seems like a lot of money to spend to save a little on fuel, and have more torque than I'll ever need or use.

I'm not sure where you're getting a low mileage JDM engine for $1,500, and how reputable the seller is at that price. For OEM-quality, rebuilt JDM engines, you're easily looking at $4k-$6k, sometimes a bit higher depending on the options thrown on.

Moreover, a used engine price is comparable to another used engine. If you're talking used, go look at the prices for used 4bt and 3.8l diesels. They are likely comparable to what you'd pay for a used gasoline Toyota engine.

For brand new, OEM-quality crate engines, the $8k-$9k for the 2.8l Cummins is not all that different from what gasoline crate engines are going for.

There must be an appropriate context when analyzing these engine prices.

 

[Clutch]

How the heck did that happen?

Camper may be okay but that truck is toast, financially-speaking.

Driving too fast not paying attention is my guess. I have come close to doing the same...

The torque delivered by the 2.8l isn't all that different from what the OEM powerplants offered, it just comes in at a lower RPM. So if the trans, transfer case and exhaust need to be rebuilt, those costs would apply to any engine swap/rebuild project.

My point was...doing an engine swap can snow ball real quick. It won't be a flat $8-9K. It never is. It is like the old construction saying...always cost twice as much and take twice as long than you think it will. Now-a-days...more like 3 times. Always some BS that creeps in that wasn't accounted for.

I don't know how you can do a complete swap for $9K when the engine itself costs that. You're going to need transmission adaptor, motor mounts, exhaust, radiator hoses, etc...

Tell you what, do the swap in your 4Runner and get back to me on the final cost. If you can do it for $9K more power to you, but I highly doubt it can be done.

3.4 is 220
Cummins 2.8 is 267

Nearly 50 more ft/lbs. I would do a HD clutch. I ran a Downey HD Clutch in my '85 4Runner 22RE, with Downey 3" lift and 33's...and that thing was an underpowered turd.

I just don't see how a $10-15K engine swap that has only marginal gains over what is already in there is going to change my outdoor traveling experience other than putting a dent in my bank account. It is like having 1000 ft/lbs of torque in a 1 ton...mainly done for braggin' rights and nothing more. Others may be able to justify it (which is fine) I can't. I mean, can you justify the cost if your 4.0 seized tomorrow and you needed a new engine?

I'm not sure where you're getting a low mileage JDM engine for $1,500, and how reputable the seller is at that price. For OEM-quality, rebuilt JDM engines, you're easily looking at $4k-$6k, sometimes a bit higher depending on the options thrown on.

Moreover, a used engine price is comparable to another used engine. If you're talking used, go look at the prices for used 4bt and 3.8l diesels. They are likely comparable to what you'd pay for a used gasoline Toyota engine.

For brand new, OEM-quality crate engines, the $8k-$9k for the 2.8l Cummins is not all that different from what gasoline crate engines are going for.

There must be an appropriate context when analyzing these engine prices.

Gotsa look around plenty of importers out there in the price range, have a couple shops here.. I have even found them as low as $900 from a local salvage yard. My local mechanic would do the labor for $1000 too. $2-3K and I don't even have to get my hands dirty.

Why go through the trouble and cost of a rebuild??? Just do a used low mile JDM. Did that in my '85 4Runner, the original engine went tits up. Used low mile engine and install was under $2000. Put 150K on that engine before I sold the vehicle.

Used 4BT...ahhh no....too loud. That and I am not into doing completely different engine swaps....too expensive, too much headache. Fixing what is already there is fine with me. No need to reinvent the wheel. Just unhook the old one and toss a fresher one in.

 

[Dalko43]

My point was...doing an engine swap can snow ball real quick. It won't be a flat $8-9K.

And my point is that many of these additional costs which you bring up are not exclusive to a 2.8l Cummins; rather they apply to any type of engine swap or rebuild.

Gotsa look around plenty of importers out there in the price range, have a couple shops here.. I have even found them as low as $900 from a local salvage yard. My local mechanic would do the labor for $1000 too. $2-3K and I don't even have to get my hands dirty.

Well, you get what you pay for in that regard. And my other point was that comparing the cost of a brand new, OEM 2.8l Cummins to a salvage yard Toyota motor is not apples-to-apples, for many different reasons.

If you're truly focused on justifying the cost, compare a used Toyota engine to a used GM or Cummins engine.

So yes, you can get a used, junk yard gasoline engine for much cheaper than a 2.8l Cummins crate engine. But the flip side is that one of those engines is a used, junk yard engine and the other is not....why would anyone expect those prices to be comparable?

 

[Clutch]

And my point is that many of these additional costs which you bring up are not exclusive to a 2.8l Cummins; rather they apply to any type of engine swap or rebuild.

Yes it will vary from vehicle to vehicle.

But do you think you can do that engine swap for only $9K? Is what i am asking.

Well, you get what you pay for in that regard. And my other point was that comparing the cost of a brand new, OEM 2.8l Cummins to a salvage yard Toyota motor is not apples-to-apples, for many different reasons.

If you're truly focused on justifying the cost, compare a used Toyota engine to a used GM or Cummins engine.

So yes, you can get a used, junk yard gasoline engine for much cheaper than a 2.8l Cummins crate engine. But the flip side is that one of those engines is a used, junk yard engine and the other is not....why would anyone expect those prices to be comparable?

I like to see what I can get for my money...so yes it is fair comparison. If I have to do an engine replacement...what is the best bang for my buck?

So the Cummins is brand new, but has marginal gains on performance. For my application that is only 50 extra ft/lbs of torque (loose 30 HP though) and maybe 5-6 gain in milage. Is it really worth $10-15K it is going to cost me? Is that really going to change my driving experience? The other issue I have, since 99% of my trips revolve around dirt biking...I can use the same fuel in the truck as I do in the bikes. If I go to diesel...now I have to carry two types of fuel. The way it is now, when I done with the trip and heading home...I just dump the extra gas in my truck.

Did you know that the 2.8 only comes with 90 warranty? Do you think they'll honor that if you do a home install? 90 days isn't much, most of that will be eaten up by performing the installation. I have found JDM's with a 6-12 month warranty, with a made in Japan engine, while the Cummins is built in China. I can buy 6 or 7 JDM's for the price of one 2.8.

Are you willing to take the chance on the Cummins with your money?

Honest question, would you do the swap in your 4Runner?

Convince me why doing the swap is a smart decision. Both financial and performance-wise.

 

[Dalko43]

Yes it will vary from vehicle to vehicle.

But do you think you can do that engine swap for only $9K? Is what i am asking.

The engine itself can be had for $9k, or less. All the other areas that need to be addressed for such a swap (transmission, transfer case, cooling) would need to be addressed, even for an OEM engine rebuild. That extra $2k-$4k is going to be spent regardless of which route you go.

I like to see what I can get for my money...so yes it is fair comparison. If I have to do an engine replacement...what is the best bang for my buck?

No it's not a fair comparison. You're comparing the cost of a salvaged 20 year old gasoline engine, with no maintenance history, to that of an OEM crate engine....totally different engines with totally different levels of refinement and reliability. No one should be surprised, or put off, by that cost difference.

I'm not going to get into a debate with you on whether the 2.8l Cummins is financially "worth it." Justifying such an engine swap is more based on emotional needs and wants than it is on financial logic. If you're truly concerned about cost, don't do an engine swap at all. Go find a slightly newer vehicle that is in better mechanical shape. You'll spend far less money in terms of maintenance and repairs over the long run.

Some people choose to swap 5.7l Hemi's or GM smallblocks into their Jeeps. Some people swap Toyota 4.7l v8's into their LC 80's. Some choose to swap 4bt Cummins into 4x4's. Some people want a more refined diesel, and are willing to pay the $9k for a brand new 2.8l Cummins. None of those engine swaps have any justification in the financial sense....they are chosen purely because of peoples' wants.

So the Cummins is brand new, but has marginal gains on performance. For my application that is only 50 extra ft/lbs of torque (loose 30 HP though) and maybe 5-6 gain in milage.

If that's your perception of the 2.8l Cummins, then I'd recommend you learn how to read torque and horsepower graphs. The nature of that power delivery is far different from most other offerings on the market. And that 5-6 mpg gain, as meager as it sounds, may extend an overlander's range by quite a bit. Again, none of these arguments are related to costs...it's about what people want.

Honest question, would you do the swap in your 4Runner?

Convince me why doing the swap is a smart decision. Both financial and performance-wise.

No. Firstly, it's not legal (the Cummins is EPA-compliant for vehicles up to 1999, or something like that). Secondly, my 4runner is in good mechanical shape and doesn't need a replacement engine.

However, if I were to buy an old, worn-out FJ-80 or FJ-60, I would most certainly consider yanking out the old gasser and installing a 2.8l Cummins. The power delivery and better fuel economy would lend itself nicely to such a platform. Arguably, the Cummins would provide similar, if not better, driving performance relative to the gassers of that era all while returning better mpg's. I would be spending money for such a project, but such money is better spent on an old vehicle (which is already heavily depreciated in value) versus on a newer vehicle.

Does that answer your question?