Advice Needed:: Tacoma owner considering a ZR2

[Clutch]

The engine itself can be had for $9k, or less. All the other areas that need to be addressed for such a swap (transmission, transfer case, cooling) would need to be addressed, even for an OEM engine rebuild. That extra $2k-$4k is going to be spent regardless of which route you go.

You said:

"The whole setup can be had $9k, sometimes less depending on available rates, and that's everything you need for the swap, minus some brackets/mounts and exhaust fittings."

Now you're tacking on an extra $2-4K to that figure. Didn't you say my guesstimate of $15K was BS?

No it's not a fair comparison. You're comparing the cost of a salvaged 20 year old gasoline engine, with no maintenance history, to that of an OEM crate engine....totally different engines with totally different levels of refinement and reliability. No one should be surprised, or put off, by that cost difference.

I'm not going to get into a debate with you on whether the 2.8l Cummins is financially "worth it." Justifying such an engine swap is more based on emotional needs and wants than it is on financial logic. If you're truly concerned about cost, don't do an engine swap at all. Go find a slightly newer vehicle that is in better mechanical shape. You'll spend far less money in terms of maintenance and repairs over the long run.

Sure it is a fair comparison. Say my engine seizes tomorrow...I am looking at all of my options of how to repower it. Do I stay stock or do something completely different?

One hand you're saying don't do a 20 year old gas engine...but on the other buy a used newer vehicle that you have no idea how the owner treated it.

If that's your perception of the 2.8l Cummins, then I'd recommend you learn how to read torque and horsepower graphs. The nature of that power delivery is far different from most other offerings on the market. And that 5-6 mpg gain, as meager as it sounds, may extend an overlander's range by quite a bit. Again, none of these arguments are related to costs...it's about what people want.

Oh I know how to read tq/hp graphs. I drive my truck at around 2300 rpm...is the swap worth the costs to drive it at a slightly lower rpm?

Extended range is a cheap easy fix. I always have a couple jerry cans with me on trips.

It most certainly related to costs, costs is deciding factor if I want it or not. I certainly can afford a 2.8 swap...and because of the costs, and marginal performance gains...makes me not want it.

No. Firstly, it's not legal (the Cummins is EPA-compliant for vehicles up to 1999, or something like that). Secondly, my 4runner is in good mechanical shape and doesn't need a replacement engine.



Does that answer your question?

I am asking if you could do the swap in your 4Runner, would you? If it was legal and your engine seized, then had to repower it.

 

[NevadaLover]

I can't speak for clutch or anyone else here but If I'm going to drop 5 figures to repower anything I drive it sure as hell isn't going to be a stinking, rattling, low rpm diesel of any make! Never cared for diesels even when the ex talked me into buying one!
I don't pull the loads diesels are designed for and don't need the extra costs associated with diesels versus gas! Gas is cheaper than diesel at just about any time and gas engines are almost always cheaper to repair!
So I have to take clutches side in this argument, you can keep your diesel and I'll keep my gasser!

 

[Tex68w]

Different strokes.......folks.....

 

[Dalko43]

You said:

"The whole setup can be had $9k, sometimes less depending on available rates, and that's everything you need for the swap, minus some brackets/mounts and exhaust fittings."

Now you're tacking on an extra $2-4K to that figure. Didn't you say my guesstimate of $15K was BS?

$9k for the Cummins gets you everything you need to do the engine swap. Some of the other crate engines being offered by companies like GM do not come with all the engine accessories and wiring needed. Salvaged junk-yard engines will more than likely require quite a bit of money spent on refurbishment and replacement parts and accessories. There is a difference in what you're getting with some of these engines.

Tack on the extra $2k-$4k for drivetrain and exhaust components if you want. It will have to be spent regardless of which route you go. If you're going to label the Cummins swap a $15k job, then you should apply that extra cost to other engine swaps when planning this out.

Sure it is a fair comparison. Say my engine seizes tomorrow...I am looking at all of my options of how to repower it. Do I stay stock or do something completely different?

One hand you're saying don't do a 20 year old gas engine...but on the other buy a used newer vehicle that you have no idea how the owner treated it.

You can look at whatever options you want...it's your choice. But you're being a bit biased when you criticize the 2.8L Cummins for being so expensive compared to a 20 year old gasoline engine. No one should be surprised or put off that a brand new diesel engine costs more than a 20 year old gasser.

Oh I know how to read tq/hp graphs. I drive my truck at around 2300 rpm...is the swap worth the costs to drive it at a slightly lower rpm?

Extended range is a cheap easy fix. I always have a couple jerry cans with me on trips.

It most certainly related to costs, costs is deciding factor if I want it or not. I certainly can afford a 2.8 swap...and because of the costs, and marginal performance gains...makes me not want it.

The torque delivery is different. If you haven't driven a 2.8l Duramax Colorado or a Hilux with a comparable inline 4 diesel, then it's hard to appreciate that difference. You're certainly not going to gain that appreciation from doing simple paper stat analysis. MPG's are better. Better mpg's + more fuel cans = better range than an old gasser with more fuel cans. Some people care about that, some don't.

I am asking if you could do the swap in your 4Runner, would you? If it was legal and your engine seized, then had to repower it.

In a heartbeat. The 4runner sold overseas gets a very similar engine with similar output. I'm already slow and inefficient with my current engine. With a 2.8l inline 4 diesel, I'll still be slow, but at least my fuel efficiency will be better and hauling heavier loads will be easier.

 

[AlexCold]

The Cummins R2.8 does not come with everything you need to swap it in. You’ll need to provide your own cooling and inter cooling solutions though they do offer affordable recommendations like using an inter cooler from a pt cruiser. The most expensive piece is the adapters needed to mate it to your transmission of choice plus clutch or flex plate/Torque converter and mounting options for it all.

From the Cummins site:
PN 5467046 includes:


R2.8 Turbo Diesel engine assembly
Complete front-end accessory drive (Alternator, Power Steering Pump, Fan Hub, Serpentine Belt)
Cam-Driven Vacuum Pump
Remote Fuel Filter/Water Separator
Remote Oil Filter
Mass Airflow Sensor and Housing
Engine Wiring Harness and Engine Control Module
Starter
Flywheel
Universal Vehicle Wiring Harness (not including starter wiring)
Throttle Pedal
J1939 CAN Dash Display
Owner’s Manual**
Installation Guide**
Cummins Quick Serve Online Access**

So it does offer a lot of the little things that make engine swaps difficult but the adapters are still quite expensive depending on what you’re installing it into. Jeep stuff is $1500-2500 just to adapt to your transmission.

With all that said, no one installs crate engines thinking it’s going to be cheap. But you do it for a reason aside from cost, whether mileage, robustness, cool/unique factor.

To bring it back to ZR2 talk, I am loving my diesel ZR2 after putting 4K miles on it in its first month. While I haven’t had the chance to do any hard off roading (mostly dirt it might be the best LA highway vehicle as it’s nimble enough to weave through traffic and the multimatics soak up California’s always “improving” roads.

 

[XJLI]

To bring it back to ZR2 talk, I am loving my diesel ZR2 after putting 4K miles on it in its first month. While I haven’t had the chance to do any hard off roading (mostly dirt it might be the best LA highway vehicle as it’s nimble enough to weave through traffic and the multimatics soak up California’s always “improving” roads.

Count at my job is up to three of them now. Black, white, and just saw a green one leaving the garage from (what I'm assuming) 3rd shift. They are sweet.

 

[rajacat]

Look at the Ford F150 2.7l Ecoboost . The 2018 with 10 speed tranny gets ~ 2 mpg better than the 2017 6 speed. These trucks are super fun to drive and seem to be reliable after some teething issues with the early models. The gas milage is exceptional for a gas 1/2 ton pickup. 21/19/24 mpg.
Go to a dealer and take a test drive and you'll experience the lively almost sports car like performance. I own a 2018 3.5 EB but had the use of a 2017 2.7 EB for several months and I'd probably go for the 2.7 if gas milage is a concern. The 2.7 has plenty of high torque power for almost any situation. If you're coming from a Taco, there'll be a huge difference. If you need to tow heavy then the 3.5 is optimum. Really good payload too. Fully boxed frame.

 

[Ryanmb21]

Look at the Ford F150 2.7l Ecoboost . The 2018 with 10 speed tranny gets ~ 2 mpg better than the 2017 6 speed. These trucks are super fun to drive and seem to be reliable after some teething issues with the early models. The gas milage is exceptional for a gas 1/2 ton pickup. 21/19/24 mpg.
Go to a dealer and take a test drive and you'll experience the lively almost sports car like performance. I own a 2018 3.5 EB but had the use of a 2017 2.7 EB for several months and I'd probably go for the 2.7 if gas milage is a concern. The 2.7 has plenty of high torque power for almost any situation. If you're coming from a Taco, there'll be a huge difference. If you need to tow heavy then the 3.5 is optimum. Really good payload too. Fully boxed frame.

Edmunds.com is getting 17.1 mpg combined in 8k miles of mixed use on thier long term vehicle.

Fuelly shows that for the 75 trucks and 306k miles tracked 2018 f150 with a 2.7 is getting 18.35mpg with a 0.21 margin of error.

So that combined rating is pretty much a joke.

 

[Ryanmb21]

Constant conversation about frame strength, c channel, boxed...

Can someone point to a failure, issue caused in the last 10 years? Would love to know what a huge problem this is.

 

[DT75FLH]

Edmunds.com is getting 17.1 mpg combined in 8k miles of mixed use on thier long term vehicle.

Fuelly shows that for the 75 trucks and 306k miles tracked 2018 f150 with a 2.7 is getting 18.35mpg with a 0.21 margin of error.

So that combined rating is pretty much a joke.

Yep. My 3.5 eco f150 was a great truck...but highest mpg I saw was 17 in colorado.

 

[rajacat]

Edmunds.com is getting 17.1 mpg combined in 8k miles of mixed use on thier long term vehicle.

Fuelly shows that for the 75 trucks and 306k miles tracked 2018 f150 with a 2.7 is getting 18.35mpg with a 0.21 margin of error.

So that combined rating is pretty much a joke.

http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/f-150/2018?engineconfig_id=49&bodytype_id=14&submodel_id=
Based on data from 20 vehicles, 215 fuel-ups and 83,691 miles of driving, the 2018 Ford F-150 gets a combined Avg MPG of 19.42 with a 0.38 MPG margin of error.



I'd bet money that I could meet the EPA mpg with the 2018 F150 2.7 EB over a given time period. Fuelly doesn't discriminate between trucks that have been used for towing or driven with no regard to fuel use. The 10 speed tranny is a game changer but it was only made available for the 2.7 in 2018. Keep in mind that this is a true half ton truck with a 1700 lb. payload.
I notice that the overall mpg for 2018 Tacoma's is 19.1 but its a significently smaller truck with less payload and towing capacity.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

Can someone point to a failure, issue caused in the last 10 years? Would love to know what a huge problem this is.

If you are asking about the F150s, there were lots of issues with the early Rapturds folding in the middle (between the cab and box), mostly due to flatbillers abusing the trucks. Abuse or not, the Rapturds were folding up like a cheap suit. Lots of videos on YouTube.

 

[rajacat]

Constant conversation about frame strength, c channel, boxed...

Can someone point to a failure, issue caused in the last 10 years? Would love to know what a huge problem this is.

I was just on a thread on TW and there were complaints about frame strength.

 

[rajacat]

TOYOTA FRAME RUST SETTLEMENT COULD COST THE COMPANY $3.4 BILLION


http://autoweek.com/article/recalls/toyota-frame-settlement-could-cost-company-34-billion

 

[Clutch]

You can look at whatever options you want...it's your choice.

Believe I feel about the 2.8 the same way you feel about converting to an OZ style flat bed. Don't see the point.

I have driven the the Chevy...wasn't all that impressed. I was all hot for one, that was until I drove it. There was time that I wanted one bad, that has faded. Don't get me wrong it felt like a good truck, but didn't exactly blow my socks off. To be fair not all the impressed with the 3rd Gen Tacoma either. Patiently waiting for the new Ranger to try out.

If you're gonna do a completely different engine swap, for the money think you're better off swapping in a LS or EcoBoost (that is if you want a brandy new engine) and aren't a cheap SOB like me.

Different strokes.......folks.....

If we were all the same, we would have nothing to argue about! Now what is everyone's favorite color!?